If God is real, and he actually said the thing about killing people who want to divert you from your faith, then he has every right because he is the one true god etc., and if God doesn’t exist and he didn’t say that, then Christianity IS a bad thing.
Possibly, but only if you think that morality would stem from authority even if God existed. Some people would disagree and say that humans should do what they think is right even if there is a God who tells them to do otherwise.
“Some people” (i.e., me) would say that God tells you to do what you know is right. (In Arabic, ma’ruwf, “good,” the root is ’arifa, implying knowledge.) So, on the authority of God, do so, even if someone tries to tell you God wants you to do something else. Today you don’t need to kill him, but he might be trying to kill you, i.e., to destroy your freedom.
If God tells you, directly, to do something else, try getting the right medication, you’ve got some killer voice in there. God doesn’t do that.
If your name is Abraham, my condolences.
I hope people don’t mind my tossing in the perspective of a Muslim rationalist here. Not all Muslims think this way; in fact, the particular school is the Mu’tazila, though the errors and maybe some innovations are mine.
I hope people don’t mind my tossing in the perspective of a Muslim rationalist here.
I am somewhat curious how you define “Muslim rationalist” and how such a rationalist is different from, say, a Sikh rationalist, and whether the two can come to an Aumann agreement in religious matters.
You may be interested in difference, I’m more interested in agreement. I gave a link to the Wikipedia article on the Mu’tazila, not because I’m an “adherent” of the school, but simply to connect myself with Muslim tradition. I would expect, however, that a rationalist will find ample agreement with any other rationalist, as long as they have some substantial shared experience.
Thanks for the link on Aumann agreement. From the article, I find this hilarious.
Aumann’s agreement theorem says that two people acting rationally (in a certain precise sense) and with common knowledge of each other’s beliefs cannot agree to disagree. More specifically, if two people are genuine Bayesian rationalists with common priors, and if they each have common knowledge of their individual posteriors, then their posteriors must be equal.
I know that’s not what is meant, but the obvious pun is beautiful. If I know my own ass (presumably from a hole in the ground), I will know the ass of others who likewise know their own ass.
However, I do think that we can agree to disagree. Not necessarily rationally, that’s all, as to rational completeness. Sometimes we make choices that the work involved in tracking down the necessary conflicting assumptions or reasoning is not worth the expected gain.
The assumption of Aumann’s theorem is an empowering one, because it leads to expectation of agreement, making it far easier to find—and build or create—than with a contrary expectation.
No, I am interested in the definition, and you haven’t given one. My guess is that a qualifier for rationalism indicates a certain degree of compartmentalization, a refusal to give up some cherished beliefs. So I expect these beliefs to show up in your definition of a Muslim rationalist.
And yeah, the unintentional pun is hilarious, but also instructive: “I know my own ass” tends to be a false statement, as people are notoriously bad at noticing “the log in one’s own eye”, sorry for the biblical reference.
You asked about the difference. “Muslim” was not a “qualifier” of “rationalist.” I’m a rationalist who is a Muslim. I could just have easily have written “rationalist Muslim.” Your expectation was not unreasonable, but a poor guess.
I was using “ass” to refer to knowledge of self, including one’s one “assholery.” It’s true that most people don’t know it—or won’t admit it.
Faith is a condition, you have faith, I’m sure, the question is in what.
Faith is not about text, credo, truth. What do you trust, shminux?
The Arabic word is imaan, trust, safety, security. It has nothing to do with right and wrong. In my own world, it means that I trust reality, as if it were my parent. That doesn’t resolve to any specific expectation.
And, by the way, this is normative for me. I do not absolutely trust reality, I’m afraid of this or that anyway.
If you have trouble reconciling apples with oranges, I’d think you could discriminate the difference. What is the difference between faith and rationality? Do you trust rationality?
Funny how you try shifting focus from my questions to you by getting defensive and asking me questions instead, but sure, I’ll play. My approach is similar to instrumentalism, so reality is just another useful model. So are right vs wrong, which are useful in some limited contexts, and faith, whose usefulness is even more limited, mostly to cognitive studies.
Now, what I asked you is “why Muslim?”, and you keep evading the question. I will disengage unless I see an honest attempt at an answer.
“Muslim” is an Arabic word, and the Qur’an distinguishes it from Mu’min, “faithful.” Faith is a higher condition. You did not ask me “why Muslim,” in the post to which I was responding. You “hoped” that I would explain how I “reconcile” faith with rationality. Apples and oranges.
You want me to answer questions, but won’t define the terms in your questions. So if you prefer to disengage, fine. I’m losing Karma with every attempt to answer. Basically, you ask a question, +3 for you. I answer, −2. You challenge, +2. I answer, let’s see what happens. It’s not looking good.
I will say that it all looks to me like prior rejection. Not surprising, I suppose. Walled garden?
FWIW, I’m not the one who downvoted you. Actually, I’ll upvote your every comment in this discussion now, since I appreciate you being engaged. And I hope others will switch from “I don’t like this comment” mode and into “it’s interesting to see a Muslim openly discussing faith and rationality, so it’s worth an upvote.
Why Muslim? I’m Muslim, that’s why!
Well, presumably you were brought up as one, or maybe converted as an adult, as many do. If it’s the former, why not have a look around for what you look in faith and see if Islam is the best? Maybe Buddhism or something would work better? If it’s the latter, how did you choose Islam over other religions?
Thanks, shminux. I’m quite accustomed to being quickly rejected. (I’ve been “conferencing,” we used to call it, since the 1980s on the W.E.L.L., where I was a moderator.) The common comment is tl;dr. But when I’m succinct, I’m also not understood. Getting it just right, under most conditions, can be a tad difficult in writing, which is very narrow-bandwidth. Sometimes it’s not clear that there even is a “just right.” The optimized writing, for some readerships, might be none at all.
Now, to your questions. Along with most who accepted Islam as adults, we don’t say “converted.” I started out as an agnostic/atheist in my teens, but then life demonstrated something else to me, and that’s a long story. I was, for a time, a student of Buddhism, and could still be called a Buddhist. I translated the Heart Sutra from the Sanskrit, in my 20s, and had some great correspondence with Edward Conze. Fun.
However, I eventually read the Qur’an, and saw something in it, a, shall we say, familiar message. Some of it seemed really weird. So, eventually, I began to read it in Arabic. The weirdness almost entirely disappeared. Artifact of translation. Again, this would be a long conversation in itself.
I did not “choose Islam over other religions.” There is no “over” and, in a sense, there is no “other” as well. Rather, I accepted what I came to understand was the Qur’an. I trust it as a “message from Reality.” The definition of “Muslim” can be boiled down to that, essentially.
But everything is a message from Reality.
The Qur’an appears to me as remarkably clear, but that certainly could be because Arabic is a context-driven language, each word is derived from root meanings, with the specific meaning being supplied by context, and that context includes our individual understandings.
If I thought that beating women is a-okay, there is a famous verse that could confirm it for me. However, given my own context, that verse, as commonly translated, seemed quite weird, uncharacteristically unjust, really bad advice. Looking at Arabic, the word translated as “beat” is “adrib.” The word means “strike,” the correspondence in English is pretty good. “Beat” is repeated striking, and would be shown as a different grammatical form. “Beat” is a terrible translation. By men, of course.
Okay, “strike.” Still sounds bad, eh? However, what does “strike” mean? It’s only in a context where physical striking is expected that we come up with the negative meaning. “Strike up the band” doesn’t mean whack them. “Strike a metaphor”—an actual Qur’anic usage—doesn’t mean “crush it.” Say something “striking” or take a ’striking” action—something to get her attention—is probably the meaning, to me. And I could then relate this to the textual context, and it makes sense. Do something unexpected. Being a bully is boring, it doesn’t work, not to create fulfilling marriages.
And for the Buddhism question, my turn to ask. What does “work better” mean?
I started out as an agnostic/atheist in my teens, but then life demonstrated something else to me, and that’s a long story.
I’d love to hear it. If you have it on your blog, feel free to link. Or PM me, if you like.
I did not “choose Islam over other religions.” There is no “over” and, in a sense, there is no “other” as well.
That confuses me. My understanding is that Muslims warship the same God Hebrews and Christians do, so one must accept this concept over whatever other religions profess.
And for the Buddhism question, my turn to ask. What does “work better” mean?
Well, clearly you have a need for a supernatural component in your worldview, apparently due to your life experiences. This is hardly unusual, though often suppressed, and EY confesses to nearly the same in The Magnitude of His Own Folly:
Above all, Eliezer2001 didn’t say “Stop”—even after noticing the problem of Friendly AI—because I did not realize, on a gut level, that Nature was allowed to kill me.
though his alief) at the time was in a Just Universe rather than in an explicit God.
So why is it that
The weirdness almost entirely disappeared
when you read Qur’an in Arabic? Do you think that this is one of those untranslatables (like those EY described in his short fiction Three Worlds Collide), or can it be expressed in English?
None of this would be particularly usable in terms of argument or convincing someone else. I saw “coincidences” on a level that made no sense, without there being what could be called “something more” than the ordinary world of cause and effect, operating only locally. Like three events that did not occur to me before or since, that would be rare for anyone, and that all happened, seemingly independently, one after the other, on one day, in about an hour. And that seemed to mean something. Basically, something like “Don’t worry, it’s covered.”
And I also experienced something directly, it would be called “mystical” here, except that it’s really quite ordinary. It’s a shift in perspective. Suppose that we are seeing all of life through a mirror. We don’t realize this, because we don’t see the signs that the mirror exists, we don’t see the edges. Sometimes we might see that the mirror is dirty, though. I won’t go there yet.
However, what does a mirror look like? Suppose that a mirror has a certain characteristic color. Let’s call that color “clarity.” Suppose that one has a faculty for seeing that color. (I suspect we all do.)
This isn’t “scientific.” There is no way to show that there is any “clarity” other than the reality of what is reflected. Or directly seen. It’s an experience, though, and because of it, the whole elementary level of Zen koans became transparent for me, and when I asked a Zen master about this, he confirmed it. I was something like 22 years old. I didn’t have training, I was just lucky, or something.
I don’t consider this truly significant, but I could probably write a book about it. It’s not the way I think any more, particularly. Again, all this did for me was to connect me with wide religious traditions, which I saw, then, as referring to experience that was not the “ordinary way” of looking at things. I’ve not fully expressed this at all, I was just describing the gateway that I walked through.
Because I wasn’t taught by any individual or within any tradition, I didn’t have a method for transmitting this. I was able to confirm some others, though. Landmark Education, however, is teaching “transformation,” and a crucial part of that is the concept of “nothing.” It can easily sound like total BS, but … people actually—and with reasonable reliability—experience it, can talk about it with each other, it is easily visible, and it has transformative value, people do become more competent, more effective, happier, fully self-expressed, etc. Call it “clearing away the cobwebs,” perhaps. Again, clarity itself. No content.
Okay, sorry about confusing you, that’s not my goal. You are referring to “bulk behavior,” that more or less assumes that Muslims and Jews and Christians “worship the same God.” Sort of. But each of those categories covers a huge variety of actual beliefs. Some Christian concepts of God are very different from some Muslim concepts. When I said that there is no “over” I meant that I wasn’t rejecting anything by accepting Islam. And when I said that there is no “other” (religion), I meant that “lslam” is a name—this is standard—for the natural relationship of the human to Reality.
(That’s very standard Islam, only I use the term Reality to refer to God. Color me ecumenical.)
What “other religions,” then? Buddhism is actually a whole set of religions, there is a huge variation. Many Buddhists don’t accept the “Buddhist mythology,” just the actual practice, the psychology, if you will. Buddhism has been considered an “atheist religion,” because some forms don’t refer to a deity at all. My interest, though, is in what those who actually practice Buddhism experience. Why would I be interested in rejecting this or in thinking my own experience superior?
I’m not sure what “supernatural” means. Out of the ordinary? But isn’t deep rationalism out of the ordinary? What are we talking about?
There is something called, loosely, “causeless joy.” Call it “existential joy.” Is it real? I really don’t know, I just know that it’s really cool! In the end, whatever I experience is a state of the brain, a pile of patterns, right? Except for one thing. What is this “I” that supposedly is having this experience? There is a pile of patterns, that’s a practically universal understanding—and very Buddhist, the skandhas. But is there anything else? I’d say, sure, but I can’t prove it. What else there is, I’ll call Reality. I can’t prove that Reality exists, but so what?
I don’t talk about “belief in God,” not for myself. Certainly many people use this language, but, for me, and in my reading of the Qur’an, the issue is a basic relationship with Reality. What you pointed out from EY was a kind of trust in Reality, he called it the Universe.
Is Reality sentient? That would be more of the issue, eh? I don’t know. I am simply moved to trust it.
Now, as to the Qur’an, it’s pretty simple. It’s not that the Qur’an is “untranslatable,” per se, it is that each word in Arabic has a huge number of possible meanngs, and to translate it into English requires choosing English meanings, and the English set of meanings for a word is often very different from the Arabic set of meanings. So by translating it, one is “specifying” the meaning more than what was present in the original (and/or possibly adding new meanings). And this is necessarily limited by the understanding of the translator. From what I’ve seen, the best isn’t nearly good enough, and the task is largely impossible, unless one replaces a “translation” with an explanation that covers every possible meaning of a text, and that would be … huge. And would still doubtless be incomplete.
Two of the followers of the Prophet were arguing about the text. One said it went a certain way, call it A. The other said, no, it was B. So they went to the Prophet. He listened to the first, and said, “Yes.” He listened to the second, and said, “Yes.” And then he said that the Qur’an was revealed in seven dialects, and that each dialect carried seven levels of meaning.
It might help to understand that “seven” is common Arabic usage for “many.” That tradition is a commonly-accepted one. It kind of blows the fundamentalists out of the water.
The Qur’an calls itself a “reminder.” I read that as implying that it will only show us what we already know.
Now, as to the Qur’an, it’s pretty simple. It’s not that the Qur’an is “untranslatable,” per se, it is that each word in Arabic has a huge number of possible meanngs, and to translate it into English requires choosing English meanings, and the English set of meanings for a word is often very different from the Arabic set of meanings.
Is this specific to the Arabic language, or is it just the mismatch there will be between any two languages? I note that Christians take a completely different view of their sacred text: it must be provided to everyone in their own language, the better for them to understand it.
So by translating it, one is “specifying” the meaning more than what was present in the original (and/or possibly adding new meanings). And this is necessarily limited by the understanding of the translator. From what I’ve seen, the best isn’t nearly good enough, and the task is largely impossible, unless one replaces a “translation” with an explanation that covers every possible meaning of a text, and that would be … huge. And would still doubtless be incomplete.
I would be interested to see your exegesis of some specific passage from the Qur’an along these lines. Perhaps as a top-level discussion post. I’ve read it in English translation (this translation), and to my eyes it consists mostly of exhortations to believe and promises of doom to unbelievers, and almost nothing about what anyone is expected to believe or to do beyond allegiance to the tribe. Randomly dropping into this online version yielded eight suras consisting of nothing else, and two that contained that plus some rather sketchily recounted stories.
The Qur’an calls itself a “reminder.”
What is it a reminder of? My reading of it reminds me only of the leaders of the ant colonies in T.H. White’s The Once and Future King.
Is this specific to the Arabic language, or is it just the mismatch there will be between any two languages?
It’s not specific to Arabic, but Arabic is particularly amenable to such wide interpretation.
I note that Christians take a completely different view of their sacred text: it must be provided to everyone in their own language, the better for them to understand it.
Well, what Christians? Some Christians do insist on studying the “relatively original” texts.
And the problem Christians face is different. To some extent, they don’t have the original text. They only have translations (at best) and rumors (in the other direction.)
Much Christian opinion (as with much Muslim opinion) is preposterous. In order to revere the Bible, as “the Word of God,” and especially what they will hold up and thump or whatever they do, they have to create a whole doctrine of “inspired translation.” They have to assume, as well, that there is a message that can be translated, one size fits all, equivalent. No wonder the standard Christian story is so … dumb.
(I hasten to add that there are lots of Christians who understand it differently, and, in my experience, they more that they actually know about their religion, the broader their view. The naive fundamentalist view is largely ignorant of Christian tradition, not only of other possibilities.)
What happens with a text like the Qur’an, or the Torah, or the Gospels, is that they are interpreted, and that the interpretations come to be considered the original message, so much so that the original message practically disappears—even if the text is being read in the original language.
I read what’s reported of Jesus in the Gospels, and don’t notice that he claims to be God. He said some other things that are so interpreted, even though there are alternate interpretations that, in some cases, are extremely simple and consistent with the context. I’ve gone over these passages with Christians, on occasion. It is as if they can’t hear the alternate meanings, they keep saying, “But he said …!”
However, they don’t know what he said. He didn’t speak Greek, for starters, as far as we can tell. The only actual words of Jesus purportedly preserved were the words on the cross, kept in Aramaic, the language of the people of the time. (Aramaic and Arabic are very similar.)
Now as to Qur’anic exegesis, I’d be happy to look at any particular passage, indeed,it’s an obligation (it’s that “Muslim” thing, though it’s also broader, I do feel an obligation to respond on topics where I have unusual knowledge) . I can’t create top level posts, though my karma has been coming back up from the initial big whack. But I can respond to them.
What is it a reminder of?
It doesn’t say. I can only say what’s obvious to me, from my own experience of it. It’s a reminder of life, of our relationship with Reality, and we all, if we study and carefully consider ourselves, already know what it would remind us of. But there still is a language problem.
Or it’s not for you. The Qur’an does not, as some might assume, condemn “non-Muslims.” It warns against the consequences of denial, though. Yup. Be careful, eh? (And the Book says that it is for those who seek to be careful, it just doesn’t create a Careful Club, with badges that will ward off Hellfire, just say the magic words.
Rumi made the point.
He describes the situation of the castle of a King, defended by dogs. Someone coming, unwelcome, to the castle, telling the dogs, “I take refuge in the King from your viciousness,” will be torn to pieces by them. No, only if the visitor is actually clinging to the “hem of the King” will they be safe. Rumi was asserting that the most common ritual phrase in Islam, repeated with every prayer session, was useless unless it represented a reality.
An actual refuge being taken in Reality, an actual trust in Reality, I’ve been saying.
My reading of it reminds me only of …
There is a good chance that you understood none of it. That’s okay. It’s not in your language, and was not explained to you consistently with your existing accepted concepts (i.e., creating a bridge).. You expected something different from a book. This is no ordinary book, even if we simply look at it from a point of view of history.
Yes. If accurate, unambiguous communication is the purpose, that’s true, though for that purpose, even in English, terms must be specifically defined for context. Jargon. Seems to me that this happens around here.
If a different form of communication is the purpose, such as with poetry, Arabic might even be optimal.
However, the Qur’an does explain why it’s in Arabic. It’s because Muhammad was Arab. And so was his community.
Did you notice the place where I mentioned that each of the seven “dialects” (sets of meanings for words) and the seven “interpretations” was confirmed by the Prophet as being legitimate? I assume, for some purpose.
The Leader Astray is one of the names of God, for example. The Qur’an is not a science textbook, in spite of some rather naive and enthusiastic claims by some Muslims.
However, the Qur’an does explain why it’s in Arabic. It’s because Muhammad was Arab. And so was his community.
Well, duh. For the same reason, the Torah is in Hebrew, the New Testament was originally in Greek, and the Buddhist scriptures were originally in Pali. It’s almost as if, to communicate an idea to people, you have to express it in their language. Fancy that!
Did you notice the place where I mentioned that each of the seven “dialects” (sets of meanings for words) and the seven “interpretations” was confirmed by the Prophet as being legitimate? I assume, for some purpose.
I did, but I lack your faith in the value of ambiguity and obscurity, regarding them instead as deepity engines.
I do feel an obligation to respond on topics where I have unusual knowledge) . I can’t create top level posts, though my karma has been coming back up from the initial big whack. But I can respond to them.
I’d caution against creating a TLP on virtues of Islam, or any other religion for that matter. While it might be obvious to you that Islam is like nothing else, the inferential gap to the LW community is basically uncrossable, so you will only get whacked again. The general understanding is that Eliezer has adequately dealt with faith and religion when discussing belief in belief, and that Reductionism does not need faith, let alone any specific religion or scripture. I am guessing that the inferential gap works the other way, too: you likely misunderstand some of the standard ideas accepted and discussed here. It would be a good exercise in rational thinking to identify and analyze such inferential gaps between you and the more mainstream LWers.
The general understanding is that Eliezer has adequately dealt with faith and religion when discussing belief in belief
The general understanding is that none of that particular topic is unique to Eliezer, who mentions (but doesn’t always cite) his sources on “belief in belief” — specifically Sagan and Dennett.
I would also caution against using the idea “mainstream LWers” ….
The general understanding is that none of that particular topic is unique to Eliezer
Right. I did not mean to imply that it was original research, though I suspect that he reproduced much of it on his own before matching with the existing literature.
I would also caution against using the idea “mainstream LWers”
My definition of a “mainstream LWer” is someone who adopts the Reductionism sequence without any significant reservations. Whether it’s a good definition may be open to debate.
My definition of a “mainstream LWer” is someone who adopts the Reductionism sequence without any significant reservations. Whether it’s a good definition may be open to debate.
This “general understanding” might be so for some (most?) in the LW community, but my prior on that is, like, highly unlikely that a single individual in a few words has “adequately dealt” with centuries of human experience and thought and inquiry. What is quite possible is that EY has addressed certain outlines of the subject;.Generally I’m in agreement with him, but also see certain unexplored points. I’m continuing to read, and as I read more, I find both more agreement and more of what I usually call “edges.”
I wouldn’t dream of “creating a TLP on ‘virtues of Islam.’ Wrong place, for sure. I’m far more interested in rationality and the stated goals of this blog.
However, there was a whole school of Islam, dominant for a time, called the “rationalists,” and science was considered compatible with Islam for centuries. That’s an Islam that, I assume, most LWians haven’t contacted. So there may be some room for this, that’s all.
I’m quite aware that atheism is the standard belief here. However, is that a rational necessity? (And if it is, I’m still interested in the question of what atheism is. I do not think of it as being “wrong.”)
What is “obvious” to me is not what is being inferred by some from what I’ve written, nor would I expect it would be obvious to others who don’t share the necessary referents. I simply offered to respond if asked.
Fubarobfusco, thanks for the link. I’ll check that out. I do not imagine that LWers are monolithic, though some may imagine that their own opinions are the opinions of the group. Maybe. More likely, not, though they might dominate.
edit: I’d already read that, and TheSimpleTruth. I’ve been looking for a while, and I haven’t seen an examination of “faith and religion,” but only of certain naive ideas about them. I’m pretty sure that a higher degree of sophistication exists here. But I can’t yet prove it. Where should I look?
OK, thank you for describing what you mean by being a “Muslim rationalist”. Certainly EY or most regulars would not use the word rationality to describe your worldview, because it appears incompatible with Reductionism, though I suppose it should not prevent you from being instrumentally rational.
You are welcome, shminux. Since you used this collection of letters, “reductionism,” and appear to posit that my view is “incompatible” with it, I looked it up. Yukdowsky’s article, for starters. Aside from EY using the device of positing a series of stupid arguments to refute, and being a bit naive about what others “believe,” when he actually gets to the definition, it seems quite like the way I think. In fact, if I hadn’t noticed this many times, reading his work, I’d not be bothering with LW at all.
Yet I’m suspicious of any “ism,” a high-level abstraction, proposed as if representing reality. Indeed, wouldn’t a reductionist be suspicious?
Reductionism as a practical approach, fine.
Now, I notice that EY, in the post, capitalizes Reality.
But the way physics really works, as far as we can tell, is that there is only the most basic level—the elementary particle fields and fundamental forces. You can’t handle the raw truth, but reality can handle it without the slightest simplification. (I wish I knew where Reality got its computing power.)
He’s expressing, first, a reductionist position. It is indeed an “ism.” It proposes itself as what is “really” so (but, to his credit, he qualifies it: as far as we can tell. Setting aside a quibble about “we,” that’s fine).
He is pointing to a unity, but is describing that unity in terms of present understanding (“elementary particle fields and fundamental forces”). Take out the “really,” understand “physics” as a heuristic, a method of making predictions, a map rather than the territory, and I’m right with him, down to capitalizing Reality, because it becomes a proper noun.
A proper noun that happens to have, it seems, amazing “computing power.”
Now, my question: is this “computing power” intelligent?
If you have an answer, coming from knowledge, I’d love to hear how you know it. I’d answer the question myself, but these comments are already long.
Now, my question: is this “computing power” intelligent?
I guess we should first agree on what the term “intelligent” means. I do not have a good definition, but let’s borrow the one given by Eliezer. It ought to be an instrumentally good one, given that constructing an intelligence (a “friendly” one) is his life’s goal:
But relative to the space of low-entropy, highly regular goal systems—goal systems that don’t pick a new utility function for every different time and every different place—that negentropy pours through the notion of “optimization” and comes out as a concentrated probability distribution over what an “alien intelligence” would do, even in the “absence of any hypothesis” about its goals.
Now, I assume that your definition would not be identical to his, so feel free to express it here.
I guess we should first agree on what the term “intelligent” means.
Smart.
[edit: I didn’t see an alternate meaning for what I wrote. I meant that it was smart to check for or seek agreement on the meaning, not that “intelligent” means “smart,” a mere synonym.]
I do not have a good definition, but let’s borrow the one given by Eliezer. It ought to be an instrumentally good one, given that constructing an intelligence (a “friendly” one) is his life’s goal:
But relative to the space of low-entropy, highly regular goal systems—goal systems that don’t pick a new utility function for every different time and every different place—that negentropy pours through the notion of “optimization” and comes out as a concentrated probability distribution over what an “alien intelligence” would do, even in the “absence of any hypothesis” about its goals.
Now, I assume that your definition would not be identical to his, so feel free to express it here.
The post refers to a definition, but doesn’t state it. A previous post has a definition:
(10) “Intelligence” is efficient cross-domain optimization.
I read this as an ability to “solve problems” efficiently, “cross-domain,” i.e., not just in some narrow field. In our discussion, I quote EY as referring to Reality as if it has huge computational ability.
My own thinking has reflected on the “omniscience” and “omnipotence” of God as being almost a tautology: Reality knows all things, and over all things has power.
Reality, however, is not an “artificial intelligence,” although artificial intelligence may exist, may be real. If it exists, it is limited by its computational power. The computational power of Reality will necessarily be greater. It may not be unlimited though. The Many Worlds interpretation might extend the power of Reality almost infinitely.
On the other hand, is Reality “efficient”?
I have no confidence in these ideas as “truth,” but do see them as possibly useful, in terms of the relationship with Reality that might be fostered by them.
I don’t know that we diverge. We have not discussed this. Do remember, above, that I said that the difference between a theist and atheist was only a thin space. It might not even be an important space. However, that could depend on what he means by “atheist” and what I mean by “Muslim,” which has been the whole point of this discussion, coming as commentary on EY’s “Uncritical Supercriticality.”
His post seems to me to be about this problem we have of making assumptions about people and positions from affliiations, and what amount to political responses to real or imagined difference. “The affective death spiral.” Thanks, shminux, for the questions you ask, which, in my experience, bring insight.
Thanks, shminux, for the questions you ask, which, in my experience, bring insight.
You are most welcome, though my assessment of our exchange is less glowing, given that neither of us changed their worldview to any significant degree.
Dude, you don’t get to distrust “ism”s when you belong to an organized religion. Some even-handedness, please!
I’ve seen a lot of things, like bananas, planes, philosophical dissertations, moods, religious experiences, and equations. In each case where I was able to look, I found that those things were made of parts, and that if you removed the parts and their interactions there was nothing left over. In each case where someone told me otherwise, they had no convincing evidence. Therefore, I don’t believe anyone who says “Maybe the true laws of nature aren’t reductionist after all” if they can’t show me an exception to current theories that looks non-reductionist.
You said earlier
That’s very standard Islam, only I use the term Reality to refer to God.
and talk about reality being intelligent. The way I understand your claim is a sort of pantheism, where the universe is an intelligent, divine being. (I know very little of Muslim worldviews but that’s not the sort of theological claim I associate with Islam.) I can see the appeal, but if there’s intelligence, where’s the brain? I’ve never seen intelligence that didn’t come from a very specific kind of structure. Show me how the universe has that structure, or why the mountains of evidence against disembodied intelligence are invalid.
You also said
Is Reality sentient? That would be more of the issue, eh? I don’t know. I am simply moved to trust it.
Augh what the fuck is wrong with you, reality kills 150000 people everyday and does nothing against torture, why would you ever trust it?
On an unrelated note, which bits of the Qur’an struck you most? I’ve tried to read the thing several times, but it’s even more boring that the genealogical parts of the Bible, and all I’ve gathered so far is “OBEY”, which is right there in the name, and platitudes like “Be just, don’t be evil”.
Dude, you don’t get to distrust “ism”s when you belong to an organized religion. Some even-handedness, please!
“Belong to an organized religion.” Huh? Do they own me? MixedNuts thinks I don’t mistrust “Islamism?” Where did that come from?
Therefore, I don’t believe anyone who says “Maybe the true laws of nature aren’t reductionist after all” if they can’t show me an exception to current theories that looks non-reductionist.
Problem is, this is a non-reductionist point of view, because it asserts that a map is the territory. “Reductionist” is, as described by Yudkowsky, an absence rather than a presence, but it is being asserted here as an absolute quality of “the true laws of nature.” Nature doesn’t have laws, AFAIK, we invent them as summary methods for predicting our experience, and someone who believes Nature does have this construct called “laws” is not reductionist. Want to be a reductionist, toss that belief.
I’m not seeing that I’m being read carefully. I did not “talk about Reality being intelligent.” I asked a question.
I didn’t claim what was asserted. Rather, I note it as some kind of possibility. In one sense, though, I can state something logically. If we are intelligent, and if we are real, then Reality must be intelligent. However, I do have some doubt about our intelligence, as well as our reality.
MixedNuts, you have a concept of “Muslim” as if it comprehensively identifies the world view of someone who admits being Muslim. I pointed to the Mu’tazila as a historical counter-example, what is called the “rationalist” school in Islam. Not that I “believe in” the “Mu’taziliyya positions.”
It seems to be that you are attempting to stuff the thinking of an individual (me) into some set of fixed categories. How does that work for you? Does it help you to understand people?
I can see the appeal, but if there’s intelligence, where’s the brain? I’ve never seen intelligence that didn’t come from a very specific kind of structure. Show me how the universe has that structure, or why the mountains of evidence against disembodied intelligence are invalid.
Fascinating. Where is your brain, MixedNuts? Does it exist in the universe? (These are questions, not insults!) Does your brain have the quality of “intelligence”?
If so, then does not Reality necessarily have the quality of intelligence?
Where did you get this “disembodied” from? (That might be something to do with SuperTheostoa.) I asked a question about Reality and intelligence. It could also be considered to be a question as to the nature of intelligence.
I’m being read with a pile of assumptions being added. That may be useful if it leads to the assumptions being identified as such. Is that possible?
There is no “mountain of evidence” against “disembodied intelligence.” In fact, I haven’t seen one piece of such. Which is no reason to accept disembodied intelligence, we don’t accept propositions merely because there is no evidence against them. Unless, of course, we want to, or choose to. It might be useful, for this or that purpose.
It seems my comment about trust in reality struck home in some way. MixedNuts does not trust Reality, many people don’t trust Reality. I mentioned that as a possibility. I did not suggest that one should trust reality. For some people, there may be no possibility of choice, for starters, but an irresolvable distrust in Reality is a psychopathology, it leads to many dysfunctions.
Why would I trust Reality?
Because I’ve got no fucking choice, that’s why. Or, more accurately, a Hobson’s choice. If I don’t trust Reality, I have no way of knowing anything, not to mention I have a life of utter insecurity. And, yes, people live such lives.
Apparently there is a meme here that death is horrible, and so too is torture. I can get on board the latter, because torture doesn’t seem to be inevitable, but death is inevitable. Sooner or later. Run the math on the risks. (But this is a factual assertion, and, of course, could be wrong. I just wouldn’t bet on it.)
Stuff exists—or appears to exist—that many of us detest as human beings. That’s obvious. What does this mean about Reality itself? It does demolish naive conceptions of Reality, for sure. Or of God. Same thing!
Obey. Great! I’m not sure what passage is being referred to, and this is certainly coming from translation. The only common equivalent I come up with in Arabic for “to obey” is aslam. It means to accept. Accept what?
Reality.
Aslamtu li r-rabbi ’l-^alamiyn. I accept the Lord of the Worlds (^alamiyn). I think it was Abraham who said that, but I forget. “Worlds” is a term that could refer to nations, but I find more meaning from the root, ^ilm, to know. The realms of knowledge.
I could look up Qur’anic usages of the root SLM, and of other words that might mean “obey,” if anyone is interested.
Yes, reading the Qur’an will be boring, if you read the translation of someone with a boring world-view. If you are looking for what is wrong with it, you will also be bored. It will be slogging through piles of symbols that are mostly meaningless.
Just an idea: you create the meaning. You see what you choose to see, when it comes to seeing “meaning.”
Finding deep meaning is difficult with narrow translations. Someone familiar with Arabic, but stuck with piles of traditional interpretations (the “right” ones), may just find confirmation of them. Nevertheless, I’ve found Muslim scholars to be usually quite open-minded. There are exceptions, scholars who pander to the fundamentalists.
My approach was different. I had to depend, initially, on translations, but when a verse seemed “difficult,” I looked up the words, and I usually had come to know the biases of the translator. Then I read the whole book in Arabic. Initially, I knew only the pronunciations, roughly. (I eventually got some classical training.) Then I read it again. And again.… I started to memorize it, from the beginning. As I did this, meaning that made sense—the only useful kind—started to pop out commonly, instead of just occasionally. I started to have the basis for routine recognition. Like a child.
I used to hate memorization, I had no respect for rote learning. Goes to show.
Does your brain have the quality of “intelligence”?
Yes.
If so, then does not Reality necessarily have the quality of intelligence?
No. A few small parts of it do: human brains, to a lesser extent other animals, and that’s it, as far as we’ve seen. There might also be intelligent aliens somewhere in the vastness.
If that’s enough to say that Reality has the quality of intelligence, it is also enough to say the Reality has the qualities of being inebriated, sober, radioactive, inert, rarefied, dense, at 3 degrees C, at 10 million degrees C, every possible colour and none.
ETA: In other words, “Reality has the quality of intelligence” is a deepity: true in a trivial sense and false in a trivial sense, but when the two senses are expressed by the same sentence, it sounds profound.
I do have some doubt about our intelligence, as well as our reality.
How?
Incidentally, I suspect that you would not hold some of the beliefs you appear to hold if you had read the sequences. That’s not a criticism as such, but still.
I don’t think you don’t mistrust Islam as a concept. I think you tackle the concepts directly, rather than adding an extra barrier of “this is an abstracted ideology, I don’t buy those”. You call yourself a Muslim, not an independent theologian with ideas from Islam.
Nature doesn’t have laws
Well obviously, once you accept that everything else follows. What I’m asking is why you think that, give that it looks very lawful: objects fall down, energy is conserved, if a prediction is true on Monday it stays true on Tuesday, every exception to known rules turns out to obey deeper rules with practical consequences we can exploit. Why can’t we just say “The thing has looked absolutely lawful for millenia, case closed”?
someone who believes Nature does have this construct called “laws” is not reductionist
?!?!??
As I see it, the reduction that works best is “Here are the elementary particles, here are the laws that govern them, everything else follows from that. Maybe the particles and laws are also made of parts, we’re still looking.”. I can’t see what’s non-reductionist about natural laws—I’m not even sure reductions are possible without some laws, though they don’t have to be as rigorous as ours look.
If we are intelligent, and if we are real, then Reality must be intelligent.
Cell membranes are permeable to water, I contain cell membranes, I am not permeable to water. By “reality” we do mean the set of cell phones and pineapples and copies of Alice in Wonderland and horses and so on, right? Clearly, whether it’s real-in-some-philosophical-sense or not, it contains intelligence: you, me, Deep Blue. But the whole set doesn’t seem to be intelligent itself; to coordinate its intelligent parts into a higher-level structure, or to build intelligence out of non-intelligent parts.
And if it’s not an intelligent being that can make decisions, or even a perfectly lawful mechanism you can control if you understand it well enough, I have to stop asking why you trust it and ask what trusting it even means.
MixedNuts, you have a concept of “Muslim” as if it comprehensively identifies the world view of someone who admits being Muslim.
I have no clue what I said that sounded even vaguely like that. I mean, I know at least two Muslims, so I can see there’s no Muslim hive mind. And I said in so many words that I don’t understand either your worldview or any other Islam-flavored worldview.
Where did you get this “disembodied” from?
Dichotomy. Either it’s embodied, and I want to know where and why it can be called “reality’s intelligence” rather than “several billion entirely unrelated intelligences”, or it’s not and I want to know how that works.
If I don’t trust Reality, I have no way of knowing anything, not to mention I have a life of utter insecurity.
You don’t have to trust the whole thing. You can trust your perceptions not to go so wonky you won’t be able to correct for them, or individual people not to stab you in the face, for example. If you trust anything to keep you out of major trouble, that’s certainly going to be relaxing but you can in fact get in major trouble.
there is a meme here that death is horrible, [...] but death is inevitable.
I do not accept that inevitable things are thereby okay. It doesn’t seem that I can make torture less bad by building a world where torture is very likely, so by continuity making it inevitable changes nothing. If a horrible dictator conquers the world and nobody can escape I don’t endorse accepting that. How do you derive an “ought” from that “is”?
Stuff exists—or appears to exist—that many of us detest as human beings. That’s obvious. What does this mean about Reality itself? It does demolish naive conceptions of Reality, for sure. Or of God. Same thing!
So what is the sophisticated answer that makes it okay? I’ve seen attempts, but they were less than convincing.
Obey. Great! I’m not sure what passage is being referred to, and this is certainly coming from translation. The only common equivalent I come up with in Arabic for “to obey” is aslam. It means to accept.
Nah, I’m referring to a general idea, not a specific passage. Things about submitting (probably the kind of acceptance you’re talking about), being humble, playing by the rules, encouraging others to do the same, and so on. Which I’m used to seeing as an introduction to “Now here are the specific intricate rules about tying shoes”, not as the main point.
Yes, reading the Qur’an will be boring, if you read the translation of someone with a boring world-view. If you are looking for what is wrong with it, you will also be bored. It will be slogging through piles of symbols that are mostly meaningless.
Man, I just wanted to Have Read An Important Cultural Work. So I suppose I need to read it with the eyes of a typical reader. Which I can’t have because I haven’t read the thing. Well, crap.
Just an idea: you create the meaning. You see what you choose to see, when it comes to seeing “meaning.”
Huh, interesting. Why is the Qur’an then superior to the Bible, the Epic of Gilgamesh, Tintin, or a blank piece of paper?
Also, how do you know that you accept the Qur’an, rather than just projecting on it what you already believe? Or is there no difference?
Well obviously, once you accept that everything else follows. What I’m asking is why you think that, give that it looks very lawful: objects fall down, energy is conserved, if a prediction is true on Monday it stays true on Tuesday, every exception to known rules turns out to obey deeper rules with practical consequences we can exploit. Why can’t we just say “The thing has looked absolutely lawful for millenia, case closed”?
This would be a good time to define what you mean by a physical law. Likely it is not the same as what Abd means. I am guessing that you assign some meaning to this term other than “it’s a useful mathematical model for humans to explain and predict some of the stuff they see sometimes”. I’m guessing further that Abd concludes from your implied (and possibly misunderstood) definition that if physical laws are guiding “reality” than they are not reducible to quarks and leptons themselves, which does call the whole idea of reductionism in question.
I’d suggest clarifying this concept first before arguing about it.
Dichotomy. Either it’s embodied, and I want to know where and why it can be called “reality’s intelligence” rather than “several billion entirely unrelated intelligences”, or it’s not and I want to know how that works.
Aristotelian logic, right? Look at the assumption:
“entirely unrelated.” Where did that come from? If they are intelligent, and if the Reality that they encounter is connected, they are not unrelated.
Something is missing here. There is an intelligence that transcends human intelligence, and it is possible for any of us to experience it. Landmark routinely accomplishes this, failure is rare. It’s called the Self in Landmark, sometimes they capitalize the whole word, SELF.
My theory or understanding is that the Self is what arises or is experienced when two (or more) human brains are entrained, when their thinking is coherent and free. It’s not mere “social reality,” where people agree on memes. The intelligence of the Self. compared to that of an individual human, could be like the intelligence of an ant colony compared to that of an individual ant. To me, faced with this experience, the Self seems to be unlimited. However, I do assume that it is limited, in fact, it’s simply operating in another realm, a realm not accessible to me as an individual.
By the way, in Landmark, this distinction is communicated in the Advanced Course. The Forum brings people into contact with it, but not explicitly.
I tested this. I told a story to people who had taken the Advanced Course (and that requires the Forum as a prerequisite).
“The Forum is about becoming free of the limitations of our past—they nod—the Advanced Course is about this.”
Everyone who has taken the AC, when I’ve said that, has lit up. It’s palpable, I’m sure it could be measured psychometrically. (And I just met a neurologist, a scientist, just completing the same training I completed, who is working on that). People who haven’t, mostly, ask “About what?”
And if I try to explain it, well, I may be reacting from within my own world of survival, looking good, being right, blah blah. I’m not being there. And for that test to work as a test, I have to be there, with that very person.
While people who have experienced this, in any of various approaches—Landmark certainly doesn’t own this—can talk about it with each other, I’ve never seen it successfully explained to anyone who hadn’t experienced it. And I didn’t experience anything like this, myself, until my mid-thirties. I was way too caught in my own head.
In other words, “multiple intelligences” may not be independent at all. In the example I gave from Landmark, there is a high-bandwidth connection. It’s not just words, which are very low-bandwidth. It’s the small muscle movements, the eyes, tone of voice, the presence of the person, that allows this connection. To experience that presence, we have to have dropped, or be able to drop, the “chatter” that normally dominates most brain activity, and attend to what is actually present. Reality, right here, right now.
I.e., the collective intelligence of a group might be far higher than that of any individual, so much higher that the individual may not be able to perceive on understand it, but can only notice it, by certain marks, and accept it.
The mark that I would point to first is clarity, but there are also other marks like love, joy, compassion, courage, that are not about individual survival. Landmark is not just about this experience, however, because it’s understood that this can be merely something pleasant (or transiently ecstatic), so it’s tested, against real-world measures, that show the operation of higher intelligence. Long story.
So, your deity-like thing is distributed among human brains, and synchronizes by communication between humans?
Once when attending Mass a a child, I felt like I was connected to some unfathomable entity, and connected through it to the other people in the church. Is that anything like what you’re referring to? (The other people were actually bored out of their skulls and discreetly making fun of the prayers. Probably a bad example.)
So, yeah, if groups of appropriately behaving people can and do act as morally better and smarter than individuals, that’s awesome and possibly worship-worthy. (Possibly because I worship anything that looks at me the right way, but still.)
But I was under the impression that Islam involved a deity that created the universe, and had more power over it than a group of well-coordinated humans. (Like, programming an oven to announce floods.) The only way I see this claim could be salvaged is heavy solipsism (well, it’s more like pluripsism in that case), that non-sentient objects are created by this hive mind. In which case, who’s the asshole who decided on malaria?
So, your deity-like thing is distributed among human brains, and synchronizes by communication between humans?
Okay, this is a “deity-like thing.” It’s not a deity. It’s a thing. I gave examples showing the arising of something more than individual intelligence, and by that I mean immediate intelligence, not something built up (like the collection of experimental reports—which is another kind of intelligence).
Once when attending Mass a a child, I felt like I was connected to some unfathomable entity, and connected through it to the other people in the church. Is that anything like what you’re referring to? (The other people were actually bored out of their skulls and discreetly making fun of the prayers. Probably a bad example.)
I assume that your experience was real. What you were experiencing, and what you might make it mean, are distinct. I’m referring, though, to something more demonstrable, that might have been present for you in that moment as a beginning, a taste. Not as the full monte.
Someone else might have a similar experience with scientific insight. Suppose that the “unfathomable entity” was simply Reality, and everyone there was in some kind of relationship with Reality. Some might be bored, contemptuous, but some might be in awe as well. Frankly, I think Reality is awesome.
So, yeah, if groups of appropriately behaving people can and do act as morally better and smarter than individuals, that’s awesome and possibly worship-worthy. (Possibly because I worship anything that looks at me the right way, but still.)
You are still defining all this as if your personal judgment of “better” is real, but, yes. It’s not that your personal judgment is “wrong,” that would be just as much of a story.
And your comment about your response to what “looks at you the right way” is an accurate description of what most of us do, most of the time, even if we think we are “rational.”
But I was under the impression that Islam involved a deity that created the universe, and had more power over it than a group of well-coordinated humans.
The concept behind the impression is one that separates the “deity” from the “universe,” one object that controls another. Reality allows us to imagine that we have power over it, but that’s a product of how we think about it.
For survival, we have found that results are usually correlated with our actions, in certain ways. If our actions are not founded in an acceptance of reality-as-it-is, however, they are likely to be ineffective, so the more effective actions likely involve “acceptance.” Islam is the Arabic word for this.
(If we have developed an inaccurate model, that perhaps worked under some circumstance but not others, what happens when we encounter the “deviations” depends on whether we believe the model or not. I.e., believe that the model is real, that it is not merely a model.
If we believe the model, our strong human tendency is to reject observations of difference, violations, if we even notice them.
If we don’t believe the model, but simply use it—or, in the case of many models, weallow it to function without explicit consciousness that it is a model, but without formalizing it as a belief—we have the possibility of improving the model, or even of discarding it in favor of something else, or nothing at all.) We, in this case, place Reality as superior to any model.
The power of Reality, though, is without effort. (Qur’an.) There is no separation between the intention and the realization.
The asshole who decided on malaria had less intelligence than a mosquito. Apparently, intelligence is over-rated.
Okay, malaria exists. We are developing the power to choose otherwise, and that power already applies over much of the Earth. The same power is also bringing new risks. I propose that we are responsible. This is not merely happening to us, we are creating it.
Suppose that the “unfathomable entity” was simply Reality
Do you mean “Reality” as in “this stick of deodorant, and this penguin, and this meson, and this symphony, and this greengrocer, and so on”? Because it is pretty cool, and everything in it has ties of various natures and strengths to everything else which is pretty cool to, and totally has the number two spot on the list of things I worship. (Number one is the ability to feel worshippy-awed emotions. Bootstraps.)
But it seems to want things like “quantum evolution should be unitary”, not things like “no child should be driven to suicide”. I admire the set-of-things-that-exist, but I don’t approve of it. Yes, it contains moral agents, and those agents have to change it from the inside because there’s no outside, but it also contains shitty parts. Can’t see why I should be accepting the whole deal.
If our actions are not founded in an acceptance of reality-as-it-is, however, they are likely to be ineffective, so the more effective actions likely involve “acceptance.”
Dude. You need separate words for “believing it exists” and “not shrieking ‘Augh kill it with fire’”. Of course if I pretend the stove can’t burn people it won’t be harmless. That doesn’t mean I’m fine with the stove burning people.
If we don’t believe the model, but simply use it
Behaving as if a model works is most of what I mean by “belief” in the first place. Sure, don’t get overattached to a model, and keep checking it.
The power of Reality, though, is without effort. (Qur’an.) There is no separation between the intention and the realization.
I’m not sure I get it. If you mean “Whatever happens is what reality wants to happen”, then clearly reality only ever wants the force to be equal to the charge times the electric field or something. Yeah, fine, it also wants some people to have a desire to eradicate malaria and a good shot at succeeding after a few millennia. But since it can do anything, why didn’t it want malaria not to exist in the first place?
If your answer is along the lines of “It can’t decide to want stuff”, please explain why it’s something you like rather than an extremely shiny toy. If it’s along the lines of “It decided that way”, please explain why it’s something you like rather than an unspeakably evil cosmic monster. If it’s along the lines of “Foolish mortal, your talk of ‘good’ and ‘evil’ is a mere human illusion”, please explain why I should care about philosophical judgements about human illusions more than about a pile of corpses.
I propose that we are responsible.
Uh, I propose that we are responsible for the risks of the things we do about malaria, but not for malaria existing? It doesn’t sound so hard to me.
Just an idea: you create the meaning. You see what you choose to see, when it comes to seeing “meaning.”
Huh, interesting. Why is the Qur’an then superior to the Bible, the Epic of Gilgamesh, Tintin, or a blank piece of paper?
Well, “superior” has a lost, unspecified standard. I’ve never encountered anything else like the Qur’an. It claims that it is not the first “message”, and I can see traces elsewhere. However, the best alternative mentioned above is the “blank piece of paper.” If you can receive the message in a blank piece of paper, you would receive the message in all the rest.
I could justify this statement from the Qur’an itself.
Also, how do you know that you accept the Qur’an, rather than just projecting on it what you already believe? Or is there no difference?
Setting aside issues with “believe,” there is no difference. You could say that the Qur’an is a mirror which shows me, if I pay attention, what I know, or think I know.
Yes, there is a danger. However, if the basic message is accepted, if I stick with the blank piece of paper, and don’t believe anything that is not on it, I won’t actually create persistent error.
Stuff exists—or appears to exist—that many of us detest as human beings. That’s obvious. What does this mean about Reality itself? It does demolish naive conceptions of Reality, for sure. Or of God. Same thing!
So what is the sophisticated answer that makes it okay? I’ve seen attempts, but they were less than convincing
“Okay” is a human judgment. Any story that makes it “okay” is a human story, invented, because “okay” does not exist in Reality, just as “not okay” does not exist.
So you aren’t convinced by this or that story. That only tells us something about you, not about Reality, and “you” don’t exist, in Reality. “You” are a concept, an illusion, not a reality. As am I.
You are looking for explanations of an illusion. It can be done, I’ll claim. That is, by the way, a reductionist claim. Right?
I will also claim that an experience, a state of being, is possible that doesn’t make “evil” okay, “evil” being shorthand for the “detestable,” but it leads to something else, an acceptance of Reality that also gives us maximum power to change, to create transformation. Call it clear thinking if you like, that leads to maximized probability for effective action, rooted in fundamental values.
What’s “fundamental”? Well it’s probably written in our DNA. It isn’t an absolute, it’s a quality of life as it evolved, so this is reductionist. Or there is something beyond Theostoa, there is SuperTheostoa, and I can’t tell the difference. Not yet, anyway, and it may not be possible.
Thanks for replying. Unfortunately I understand exactly nothing of what you wrote.
“Okay” is a human judgment. Any story that makes it “okay” is a human story, invented, because “okay” does not exist in Reality, just as “not okay” does not exist.
Certainly “okay” is not fundamental. And certainly any judgement and subsequent action of something being okay or not is going to come from an okayness-judging being (that would be humans), which may be flawed. (And whether “okay” comes from humans or not is confusing, but not germane to my point.)
But I’d be… surprised… if “okay” didn’t refer to a thing that exists. Marlene is happily married and raises her long-awaited child. Manda died at seven in a freak accident. Those situations evoke strong emotions in me. I desire to create more situations like the former and fewer like the latter. I desire to ally with those who share such desires, and oppose those who don’t. Is this mistaken?
“You” are a concept, an illusion, not a reality.
If you cut me, do I not bleed? Maybe the knife is a concept and the blood is an illusion, but I still want to know how the concept and illusion work.
You are looking for explanations of an illusion.
Well yeah, if you’re telling me “Don’t rage against malaria”, you’ve got some splainin away to do.
I will also claim that an experience, a state of being, is possible that doesn’t make “evil” okay, “evil” being shorthand for the “detestable,” but it leads to something else, an acceptance of Reality that also gives us maximum power to change, to create transformation.
I don’t understand the words and can’t parse the sentence. Does “detestable” mean the usual stuff—people starving to death or being burned alive or dropping their ice cream on the sidewalk and so on? If not, can you give some examples?
What do you mean by “acceptance”? Is it something like “Yes, I am lost in the wilderness—no whining about how terrifying that is, no denial about how likely I am to die, it’s time to focus on survival alone.”?
If so, that’s a beneficial attitude. But there’s no trust or security here—you know on a gut level that bad things happen, and want them to stop happening. And you don’t like the universe that lets such things happen. So unless you’re arguing for “Reality is evil, burn it” that’s either not what you mean or I’m missing a step.
I don’t think you don’t mistrust Islam as a concept.
I mistrust all concepts, in theory.
In fact, of course, I rely on concepts in daily life. In practice, I trust some. But they are all suspect, because, compared to the pure possibility of emptiness, they limit us. We trade that loss for utility.
Concepts are great! But the map is not the territory. If I want to know the territory, I have to experience the territory, any map will distract me. If I have chosen to travel from A to B, then a map can be very useful.
Ideally, I have the map, I can plot a course from A to B, but if I pass by C, of greater interest than B, I’ll still see C, even if it’s not on the map of All Places of Interest.
I think you tackle the concepts directly, rather than adding an extra barrier of “this is an abstracted ideology, I don’t buy those”.
It’s more fundamental than that. I mistrust any interpretation. Abstracted ideologies are merely further from what I do trust, Reality. Sensory data is an aspect of reality. What that data can be made to mean is interpretation.
You call yourself a Muslim,
I wear a Muslim hat.
not an independent theologian with ideas from Islam.
I’m not a theologian, though I do think about what might be called theology. Islam, as I define it—which happens to resemble the sources—is not theology, though it has theological implications.
In many ways my approach is Buddhist, if one wants an “ism” to try to contain it.
Well obviously, once you accept that everything else follows. What I’m asking is why you think that
when I wrote that Nature does not have “laws,” I did not mean what I did not write. I did not write that Nature was arbitrary, for example. What we call “laws,” however, are interpretations, heuristics, models. Nature has no problems to solve, needs no predictions. We have problems, and an AI will have problems.
It is obvious that Nature is commonly predictable. However, “commonly” is not enough. Can Nature disobey, for example, her own “laws”? It looks like she can, because what we have come to is an understanding of probability. If a situation can resolve as A or B, with some probability for each, we can develop laws that predict probability, but that does not predict any particular behavior in an individual instance. We have developed a probability. Nature doesn’t handle itself that way.
However, you can believe that Nature does follow laws if you like. And you can attempt to determine those laws. And that is highly useful, even necessary. However, if you believe what you have created, as if Nature were bound by the :”laws” you have inferred—and, hopefully, tested—you will become less able to see the exceptions. If by any chance, you notice one (the cards are stacked against it), you will dismiss it as some error.
, give that it looks very lawful: objects fall down, energy is conserved, if a prediction is true on Monday it stays true on Tuesday, every exception to known rules turns out to obey deeper rules with practical consequences we can exploit. Why can’t we just say “The thing has looked absolutely lawful for millenia, case closed”?
someone who believes Nature does have this construct called “laws” is not reductionist
?!?!??
When I read Yudkowsky, I interpret him as I interpret the Qur’an. That is, I assume that he’s right. It’s just a temporary assumption that facilitates understanding. So I have interpreted “reductionism” in a way that makes it—to me—right. It’s consistent with what I’ve read, so far. However, applying this, Yudkowsky is not always fully reductionist. Essentially, he’s human. So far, anyway. Seems to me that he acknowledges this.
Building on what TimS said, I would make a lot fewer assumptions if you explained things as you would to a toddler rather than express complex ideas in five highly ambiguous words and then complain I didn’t interpret each word exactly the way you meant to.
You still haven’t answered the question of why nature looks a whole lot like it has laws. Even if true, how can you possibly know that the model we have tested ten thousand times and confirmed each time is a surface model and not the truth?
Can Nature disobey, for example, her own “laws”? It looks like she can, because what we have come to is an understanding of probability.
Disagree. First, a probabilistic law is still a law; take nondeterministic Turing machines for example. Second, with the exception of some interpretations of QM, probabilistic models claim to be approximations of the true (or still approximate but a level deeper) laws when the human trying to use it lacks information or time to compute. Sometimes we find nature disobeying situation A’s law in situation B, but there always turns out to be a law that governs A, B, and C.
However, you can believe that Nature does follow laws if you like.
Clearly we’re not using “believe” the same way.
if you believe what you have created, as if Nature were bound by the :”laws” you have inferred—and, hopefully, tested—you will become less able to see the exceptions. If by any chance, you notice one (the cards are stacked against it), you will dismiss it as some error.
I call bullshit. Physicists catch exceptions to current theories all the time, and then work hard to find where it came from, and either devise new theories or fix the loose cable in their setup. Where’s the list of exceptions discovered by mysterians?
So I have interpreted “reductionism” in a way that makes it—to me—right.
You should probably interpret it as “what most reductionists advocate” and use “the version of reductionism I think is right” for the other thing, if you hope to talk to people who call themselves reductionists without making them shout “What the actual fuck?”.
In the abstract, there’s nothing incoherent about using others’ technical vocabulary with different meanings. But:
1) You are misleading yourself if you think you are communicating effectively with them. 2) Your statements about their positions will make no sense to them. 3) It comes off as quite arrogant—essentially you are asserting you know better how a concept works without even attempting to justify the assertion (or even noticing that such an assertion is necessary)
If Eliezer says he is a reductionist1 and you say he is not a reductionist2, you haven’t done anything particularly clever or praiseworthy.
I’m not sure what “supernatural” means. Out of the ordinary? But isn’t deep rationalism out of the ordinary? What are we talking about?
In the local parlance, “supernatural” is used to describe theories that have mental thingies in them whose behavior can’t be explained in terms of a bunch of interacting non-mental thingies. Pretty sure the definition originates with Richard Carrier.
I have no idea what limits there are on what “interacting non-mental thingies” can do. As an example, I don’t know what an “angel” is, much less how one works. I accept—as a Muslim—that the mention of angels in the Qur’an means something, it isn’t just stupid, but I don’t know what it is, but I somewhat assume that it refers to psychic forces, i.e., patterns in the mind, or patterns of patterns, etc.
(Actually, the first mention makes sense even though I don’t know what the angels are. That passage is really about us and what we do, and it’s a story that leads into the story of Satan, which I know is a psychic force, the hatred of the human—that is, pure intelligence that is full of disdain for this wet mess, this bag of shit. Okay, recognize.)
Reality, for me, is either Theostoa (without the ether construct) or SuperTheostoa, and I can’t distinguish them, and I can’t imagine how to distinguish them. Any mental thingie that might be ascribed to SuperTheostoa might be a not-understood, non-mental characteristic of Theostoa.
But both Theostoa and SuperTheostoa are covered by the word Reality. Aside from reality, there is nothing. When we “worship” other than Reality, we are led astray, leading me to the credo of Islam. Laa ilaaha illa ’llah, there is no object-worthy-of-worship (ilah, god) except The Object (al-ilah, the god, shortened to Allah).
All the lesser “supernaturals” seem like fantasy to me. There may be realities—defined as actual experience—behind them, but … there are other possible explanations as well. I distinguish “experience” from what we take it to mean.
Setting up Reality as God, then, as a mode of thinking, leads to study, testing, falsification, rejection of dogma, clarity (in many senses), etc. It leads to trust in Something behind life, though for some it could lead to fear, even terror. It depends on what is already in the heart. “Heart,” again, can be understood as a pile of mental thingies (high-level patterns of patterns) that are made up of interacting non-mental thingies (patterns), arising from the machine (the brain) and the programming (memories and interactions of memories). Or it is a “mental thingie” with its own existence, i.e., supernatural, but I don’t see evidence for that.
A piece of meat is trying to figure out if there is anything other than itself. Perhaps I’m actually agnostic, full circle, except that I’m also Muslim, by the definitions.
This is overthought, but maybe it’s useful to someone.
If God only tells you to do what you know is right, that’s fine. God’s authority doesn’t add anything to the obligation though. It would be just as right without a God as there is with it.
I have problems with the idea that God is the source of our understanding of right and wrong though. If you accept that idea then contradictory preferences are evidence against the existence of God, and it’s pretty clear to me that preferences contradict all the time. Plus, I don’t think you’re justified in ignoring the Abraham data point, it seems like a significant and revealing event.
It would be just as right without a God as … with it.
Agreed. However, do you ever need to be reminded of something?
the idea that God is the source of our understanding of right and wrong...
A bit of a fish bicycle, eh? Or, a tautology? At best, the idea is not a truth, it is a way of looking at life. It either works or it doesn’t. It’s empowering or not. That’s all. If used to make a personal sense of right and wrong into an absolute, it’s been corrupted. Contradiction of preferences is decent evidence that the personal sense isn’t absolute, but that doesn’t bear on the existence of God. God made us different, that we might recognize each other. That, again, is Qur’an.
Most arguments for and against the existence of God are rather equally silly. I used to lecture university students on Islam, and once an atheist proudly asserted his position, “I don’t believe in God.” I asked him, “What God don’t you believe in?” I think he was already a bit confused, I forget his answer, if there was one. I then said, “The God that you don’t believe in, I don’t believe in either.” He was speechless. He’d expected an argument. Of course, it was an argument, just one he’d never heard before. I wasn’t being silly, and I was telling him what was true for me.
(I was more combative in those days. Now, I’m a little ashamed to tell that story. Did I actually communicate something to him—or discover something with him --, or did I merely humiliate him? The fact that I don’t know indicates something was missing.)
I didn’t “ignore the Abraham data point.” After all, I brought it up. To cover the Aqedah, though, could take more than I’m prepared to address today. I wrote, “my condolences,” because that was truly a trial. Can you imagine?
I have seven children. Abraham didn’t have the option to check himself into a psychiatric unit. I would. Still, somehow it worked out anyway.
And, should I mention that it is just a story? Again, a Muslim view, from the Qur’an: God tells stories.
There are more details in the Qur’anic story, but it’s not really necessary here so I’ll leave it.
A bit of a fish bicycle, eh? Or, a tautology? At best, the idea is not a truth, it is a way of looking at life. It either works or it doesn’t. It’s empowering or not. That’s all. If used to make a personal sense of right and wrong into an absolute, it’s been corrupted. Contradiction of preferences is decent evidence that the personal sense isn’t absolute, but that doesn’t bear on the existence of God. God made us different, that we might recognize each other. That, again, is Qur’an.
I wasn’t talking about contradictory preferences between different people, but within one individual person.
I want to be famous but also want to not talk to people. I want to be strong and a hard worker and smart and also want to sit on the couch all day watching TV. I want to be happy but I also enjoy moments of extreme sadness. My preferences don’t make sense at all, they’re not coherent and they change over time and they’re shaped significantly by my genetics and my childhood environment, so it’s extremely more probable that they’re the product of a random process like evolution than that they’re the product of a God. If a God is responsible for my preferences, he is insane and incompetent.
Most arguments for and against the existence of God are rather equally silly. I used to lecture university students on Islam, and once an atheist proudly asserted his position, “I don’t believe in God.” I asked him, “What God don’t you believe in?” I think he was already a bit confused, I forget his answer, if there was one. I then said, “The God that you don’t believe in, I don’t believe in either.” He was speechless. He’d expected an argument. Of course, it was an argument, just one he’d never heard before. I wasn’t being silly, and I was telling him what was true for me.
Your ability to confuse one naive college atheist isn’t very strong evidence for anything. The atheist should have replied that he didn’t believe in any gods. You weren’t making an argument, just confusing him. Or if you were making an argument, then I’ve missed it, and I need the premises more clearly stated.
(I was more combative in those days. Now, I’m a little ashamed to tell that story. Did I actually communicate something to him—or discover something with him --, or did I merely humiliate him? The fact that I don’t know indicates something was missing.)
I think you probably confused him, or he was bad at thinking on his feet and responding to new ideas, but that afterwards he thought about it and figured out what his reply should have been. I would expect that “I don’t believe in any gods” is a fairly obvious reply to most people. He was probably annoyed with himself, and abit upset at you for confusing him, and he might have been a little embarrassed too.
I didn’t “ignore the Abraham data point.” After all, I brought it up. To cover the Aqedah, though, could take more than I’m prepared to address today. I wrote, “my condolences,” because that was truly a trial. Can you imagine?
That’s fine, it’s a big issue. I felt like you were lampshading it, but if you’ve got a lengthy complicated explanation of it that you’d rather not go into I sympathize and agree. I’d rather not go into detail with it either.
If a God is responsible for my preferences, he is insane and incompetent.
Great. What is this thing called “responsible”?
There are at least three major possibilities here, once we get past a definition. Feel free to add other possibilities.
God is responsible.
You are responsible.
Nobody is responsible, these are just circumstances, meaningless.
The conclusion (insane and incompetent) does not follow from the premise, however. It requires unspecified assumptions. Which one of these shall we examine first?
I don’t mean responsible, I guess. That was poor phrasing.
If God intentionally chose my preferences and my preferences contradict in ways that don’t make sense then God is crazy or incompetent or doesn’t care about my preferences because my preferences wouldn’t contradict if they were designed for any sort of reason.
In most of these conversations, God is a fish bicycle, isn’t that obvious? There is a possible conversation about what “God chose,” but the theologies that make sense to me essentially zero out the God contribution, beyond creating some expectation that it all makes, in the end, some kind of sense, and that we can search for that. God is, I’ll just say, outside of time and so placing God’s choice in the past, again, makes no sense. What is “God,” anyway?
Since you don’t accept the idea of God, whatever reasoning you create about God is made up, fantasy about fantasy.
Was there any choice at all involved in the creation of your “contradictory preferences”? What are you talking about? What is “choice”?
Okay, the core: you assume that contradictory preferences mean that something is wrong. Otherwise you would not conclude from them that God is crazy or incompetent. I’ll just make up something not-wrong. You have differing preferences because they give you different points of view, and when you can see from more than one point of view, you get depth perception, right? Is depth perception valuable?
My own answer, by the way, about the three possibilities is All of the Above. Those are simply three stories we can tell about responsibility. Each one produces, if held in mind, consequences. Each has a value, but generally the most empowering is the second: you are responsible for your identity, which includes what you describe as your preferences.
Isn’t that obvious? Okay, maybe it’s not. We don’t ordinarily think of ourselves as something that we created, we tend to “blame” it on our parents, society, or circumstances. But our identity was formed out of how we reacted to those factors. Did we chose these reactions or were they just automatic and predetermined? I’ll leave the question there for now.
Your ability to confuse one naive college atheist isn’t very strong evidence for anything.
It was not asserted as such (remember, I wrote that I was “a little ashamed”). Consider it dicta, but it does contain an argument about atheism, one which I’d expect would be well-known, here. Perhaps someone will point me to consideration of it.
I would expect that “I don’t believe in any gods” is a fairly obvious reply to most people.
In the original conversation, it was just “God.” But the problem is the same. What is this thing that is being disbelieved? The words “God” and”gods” have very different meanings for different people, even among people who supposedly are part of the same “sect.” What is it, precisely, that is being accepted or rejected? Or is the concept being accepted or rejected at all, is this just another form of “I’m right” and “You and people like you are wrong,” which, like any such expression of identity, bears no relation to any reality other than personal?
What I confronted with that student—this was about 18 years ago—was his assumption that he knew what I believed. If I “believe in God,” I must think this and that and the other thing.
Do I “believe in God”? That would be a fair question, eh? It wasn’t asked. Nor have I been asked it here. Nor have I been asked to define my terms, -- what is “God,” after all? -- and what I’ve indicated about it has not been heard (by anyone who responded). Hint: it’s related to that capitalization issue. You’ve seen enough to be able to say what I believe, if you’ve been paying adequate attention—or you will if you pay it now.
Chaosmosis, is there anything that you do “believe”? We need, of course, a definition of “believe.”
People can argue with each other for years, getting nowhere, because the terms being used are never specified so that fundamental disagreement—if it exists, sometimes it does not, and I have some suspicion that it never exists outside of psychopathology—can be identified.
It was not asserted as such (remember, I wrote that I was “a little ashamed”). Consider it dicta, but it does contain an argument about atheism, one which I’d expect would be well-known, here. Perhaps someone will point me to consideration of it.
It’s a bad argument against atheism. Atheists don’t just disbelieve in any particular God, they disbelieve in all of them. Of course, if you redefine God to mean “potato”, then atheists will believe in God. But that’s a bad use of language, and the default assumption is to use the word in its normal context.
In the original conversation, it was just “God.” But the problem is the same. What is this thing that is being disbelieved? The words “God” and”gods” have very different meanings for different people, even among people who supposedly are part of the same “sect.” What is it, precisely, that is being accepted or rejected? Or is the concept being accepted or rejected at all, is this just another form of “I’m right” and “You and people like you are wrong,” which, like any such expression of identity, bears no relation to any reality other than personal?
Any beings which have supernatural powers or knowledge aren’t believed in by atheists. This would include everything that is normally considered a god, and a few extra things too.
What I confronted with that student—this was about 18 years ago—was his assumption that he knew what I believed. If I “believe in God,” I must think this and that and the other thing.
No, you confused him. That doesn’t mean he understood this point.
What God do you believe in? Your point only makes sense if your understanding of God differs from the conventional one(s) in some important respect, which it probably doesn’t.
Do I “believe in God”? That would be a fair question, eh? It wasn’t asked. Nor have I been asked it here. Nor have I been asked to define my terms, -- what is “God,” after all? -- and what I’ve indicated about it has not been heard (by anyone who responded). Hint: it’s related to that capitalization issue. You’ve seen enough to be able to say what I believe, if you’ve been paying adequate attention—or you will if you pay it now.
Are you basically a deist?
Chaosmosis, is there anything that you do “believe”? We need, of course, a definition of “believe.”
Definition of believe: “to accept as true or real”. I don’t believe with certainty in anything. (Technically, my intuitions are certain about certain things. Other parts of my brain disagree with their confidence though.) I slightly believe in everything, in that anything is possible because I’m fallible. But for everyday purposes, I believe that I am a human, that the sky looks blue sometimes, that rain is wet, and about ten million billion other things.
People can argue with each other for years, getting nowhere, because the terms being used are never specified so that fundamental disagreement—if it exists, sometimes it does not, and I have some suspicion that it never exists outside of psychopathology—can be identified.
What God do you believe in? Your point only makes sense if your understanding of God differs from the conventional one(s) in some important respect, which it probably doesn’t.
I pointed to the Mu’tazila in another post to connect my position with an old tradition, one which is frequently thought to be heretical. The real story is that the Rationalists were very successful, early on, which might say something about the compatibility with the “proof-texts” of Islam, i.e, the Qur’an and the stories of the Prophet, but they asserted their power to attempt to crush contrary opinion. No surprise, they then lost power, and were in turn crushed.
To be fair, it was not the rationalist theologians who did this, it was their powerful supporters, who made the reserved and rational interpretations into a state-enforced dogma. Perhaps we could say that they did not adequately restrain their supporters.
Many “Muslims” would consider my comments heretical, I’ve run into this. I was considered to be too accommodating to “non-Muslims,” who, they believed, were doomed to Hell if they did not “accept Islam.” This got to the point that when I recited and translated a section of the Qur’an to a group of visiting Christian seminary students, the imam of the mosque was waving frantically at me to try to get me to stop. His religious affiliation trumped any concept that our responsibility might be to convey what was actually in the Qur’an. He was mostly ignorant of it. Small mosque, in a small town, a big fish in a small pond.
Definition of believe: “to accept as true or real”. I don’t believe with certainty in anything. (Technically, my intuitions are certain about certain things. Other parts of my brain disagree with their confidence though.) I slightly believe in everything, in that anything is possible because I’m fallible. But for everyday purposes, I believe that I am a human, that the sky looks blue sometimes, that rain is wet, and about ten million billion other things.
Great. Could we say that you believe in your experience? I would put it a little differently. You trust your experience. But for what?
In any case, can we distinguish between experience and what is concluded or expected from it?
It’s a bad argument against atheism. Atheists don’t just disbelieve in any particular God, they disbelieve in all of them. Of course, if you redefine God to mean “potato”, then atheists will believe in God. But that’s a bad use of language, and the default assumption is to use the word in its normal context.
You persist in this, Chaosmosis, in assuming “against.” What I presented was not an argument “against” atheism, per se, it was a question as to the nature of atheism. If “atheism” is disbelief in “God,” then there must be some definition of “God,” or it’s totally meaningless.
I don’t define God to be a thing. I equate God with Reality. What is that? I do not assume that I understand God. I did not invent this understanding, I found it. It’s actually pretty standard Islam. God has many names, and one of them is al-Haqq. The Truth or the Reality. Because this is a reference to a singleness, I capitalize it, this is not a reference to the ordinary individual realities, the body of facts, all of which are conditional and relative.
I don’t “believe” in this, I “trust” it, which is a better translation of the word in the Qur’an which is ordinarily translated as “believe.” That is, there is an operating hypothesis here, on which I lean. It has effects. But it happens to be one which does not constrain my reasoning, that encourages it. But it is arbitrary, it’s a choice.
I am responsible for it.
And you have your own choices to make.
In any case, “belief” is about an assumption of truth. “Trust” is only about a mind-state, in fact, or what I more routinely call a “condition of the heart.”
If I unpacked “disbelieves in God” to “has not encountered a concept of God they both believed (“did not disbelieve”, if you prefer) and did not consider a silly conception of God”, would atheism still be meaningless? Would that be a horrible misconception of atheism?
Are you sure there’s nothing bundled in with “God is Reality” beyond what you state? Let’s say I said “God is Reality. Reality is not sapient and has never given explicit instructions on anything.” Would you consider that consistent with your belief that God equals Reality?
I’m not trying for Socratic Method arguing here, I’m just not quite sure where you’re coming from.
But if God made people and our entire existence is up to his design, then
a) He know’s something we don’t
or
b) The world is a cruel, cruel place.
And anyway, if he created humans, he planted our sense of morality too. I think the lesson here is: Don’t go chasing after other gods or you will get killed.
They don’t. However, what you said posed a created contradiction. There is more than that, to be sure. Rixie is saying one piece of this: implying that there will be no contradiction, because your “sense of morality” comes from God. I think that’s a bit naive, but not totally off. That is, I can think all kinds of crazy stuff. That’s not the same as knowledge.
The “other gods” implies a context where there is one, yours. What is that? Is this your identity or is it something deeper? If Rixie is right, “chasing” some other source of meaning could be fatal. What could that mean?
Chaosmosis, you objected elsewhere to my capitalizing Reality, I think. Reality is my substitute-name for God. So if I am chasing another “god” besides Reality, I’m literally going crazy.
Rixie’s point was operating within the hypothetical of “If God is real, and he actually said the thing about killing people”. Rixie defended that point with an appeal to authority. I pointed out that appealing to God’s authority only works if we believe what God said. That somewhat invalidated Rixie’s initial point. If Rixie now wants to argue that God would never order us to do something wrong, or something else like that, then Rixie needs to not only point out that the claim isn’t necessarily founded on an appeal to authority but also needs to add an additional argument which the claim could be legitimately founded on. I initially didn’t catch on that Rixie was abandoning the hypothetical because Rixie never took that second step.
I don’t understand your middle paragraph. What context is this in, where is the “other gods” quote from?
I can’t understand your last paragraph very well until I understand the relevancy of the middle one. I objected to capitalizing words like Reality because that sort of capitalization only occurs when you think of something like a proper noun, and thinking of things like proper nouns when the things aren’t proper nouns often adds a level of mysticism to the concept of those things which is detrimental to rationality.
Okay. First, I don’t really care who said what when, my goal is something like consensus or shared vision, and how we get there, and who stumbled and how, isn’t so important to me.
“other gods” was from Rixie:
And anyway, if he created humans, he planted our sense of morality too. I think the lesson here is: Don’t go chasing after other gods or you will get killed.
This is proposed as a message to you. (You could choose to take it impersonally, as having nothing to do with you, but Rixie did use “you.” That might be accidental, but I like to start with what people actually wrote or said. Kind of the point I’ve been making here, in fact.)
So someone says to you, chaosmosis, “don’t go chasing after other gods, or you will get killed.” The principle of exegesis that I was taught was to assume that statements are correct. In fact, every statement can be true or false, but assuming that statements from others are true is the most powerful place to start. Assuming that the truth is literal and fixed would be irrational; this is just about communication process. When people start with skepticism and rejection, they can only come to understand statements when they are lucky enough to find serious proof. That’s actually rare, the approach is highly inefficient.
So what would “other gods” mean for you? I proposed a meaning. What do you think of it?
“Other god” implies “God.” What would your God be if the words meant something? Rather than anticipate an answer, I’ll stop.
As to capitalization, I use it with proper nouns. You assume that words are proper nouns or not. That depends on context. What you think of as “mysticism” could be a level of meaning that perhaps you don’t recognize, and you assume it is detrimental to rationality. Is that a fact? How would you know? What, indeed, is “mysticism”?
The principle of exegesis that I was taught was to assume that statements are correct. In fact, every statement can be true or false, but assuming that statements from others are true is the most powerful place to start. Assuming that the truth is literal and fixed would be irrational; this is just about communication process. When people start with skepticism and rejection, they can only come to understand statements when they are lucky enough to find serious proof. That’s actually rare, the approach is highly inefficient.
You contend that starting by believing what others say to be true is true is the fastest way to truth. I disagree. I think we should take others opinions as evidence, but that we should evaluate truth on a probabilistic level. There are no defaults, and we shouldn’t unfairly privilege any hypotheses. I think the truths you arrive at through that method aren’t true if they can’t be arrived at through the other method. People say many false and nonfalsifiable things. People assert things that they have no way of knowing or that make no sense at all. There is no reason I should believe people in these cases.
You conflate different instances of claims by people, essentially, viewing them all as equal. I make distinctions, and say that people’s opinions are good approximators of the truth in some cases but bad in other cases. This seems faster because it ensures that I don’t get stuck whenever I hear someone make a nonfalsifiable claim. There is an invisible and untouchable dragon behind you who will eat you and send you to hell if you believe nonfalsifiable claims. If you truly followed the system where you believe everything anyone tells you until you get contrary evidence, you would now have a terrible paradox on your hands.
How do you make the jump from this communications based model of evidence to a model which incorporates evidence? It seems like there’s a huge disconnect there, if the default mode is acceptance of others ideas then there would never be any reason to make the jump towards evidence.
So what would “other gods” mean for you? I proposed a meaning. What do you think of it?
“Other god” implies “God.” What would your God be if the words meant something? Rather than anticipate an answer, I’ll stop.
I don’t think I have any god, so I don’t know what “other gods” might mean for me. I’ll speak metaphorically then. I would say that to the extent that I have a god, it’s a nonomniscient and nonomnipotent god that I find sort of pathetic most of the time, and his name is chaosmosis. Chasing other gods would be impossible for me because everywhere I go there I am. However, I can change as an individual, and I can pursue “other gods” by changing myself.
Thinking like this is relaxing and entertaining but not useful. I don’t mistake this for truth. It might be true, but the process that brought me there was a lazy and invalid one, and in other cases it would fail. It would be right for the wrong reasons.
As to capitalization, I use it with proper nouns. You assume that words are proper nouns or not. That depends on context. What you think of as “mysticism” could be a level of meaning that perhaps you don’t recognize, and you assume it is detrimental to rationality. Is that a fact? How would you know? What, indeed, is “mysticism”?
I think that proper nouns should only be used where they are used traditionally.
Mysticism is an emotion of awe and humility and grandeur. Emotions are not evidence. I’m human, so the temptation is for me to treat emotions as evidence. This is detrimental to rationality. Therefore, I try to avoid my encounters with seductive emotions like mysticism, or to accept those encounters but also to make sure that I’m justifying my decisions on a logical basis and not an emotional one.
Mysticism is meaningful, but in a subjective and emotional sense. In a logical sense, it fights against meaning and truth.
Many issues of weight—at least to me—are raised here, I could spend weeks writing in response, and would lose everyone. What’s on-topic here? The rest can be addressed with new posts.
The original post is “Uncritical supercriticality.” The emphasized text from Deuteronomy prescribes a violent response to unfamiliar, alien thought, proposals of “other gods.” Yudkowsky is suggesting that this entire class of responses is inimical to rationality. He brings the problem down into social phenomena that stifle communication, such as reluctance to criticize evidence for the locally popular view.
I’m extending this a bit. I’m claiming that we cannot have a real dialog on an issue where there is an appearance of disagreement, at the outset, unless we first understand the other side. One of the first distinctions transmitted in the Landmark Forum is “Already Always Listening.” That’s the set of priors that come up based on immediate, often unconscious, associations. I see someone and immediately judge them as interesting, likely to be boring, beautiful, ugly, nice, unpleasant. I hear a few words and have an opinion, instantly, about right, wrong, smart, ignorant. The training is to recognize it, not to make it wrong. AAL is human, and necessary for survival. If I see a flash of tiger-stripes in the foliage, there is no time to run a conscious Bayesian process on it, let’s hope that my habitual responses are sane. However, if we can’t distinguish these learned or instinctual responses from reality, what is actually present, we have become locked into an established world-view.
If we start with an immediate assumption of wrongness, and if we have the normal human habit of inventing arguments to support assumptions—we are really good at that—all we can see is the wrongness of the other person.
It seems to be assumed that I’m proposing “belief” in what others tell us. No. I’m proposing conscious assumption. In order to have a true dialog, I must start with understanding, not with rejection. Once I understand, then, I may be able to apply the tools of rationality to what is now my own thinking, and that is precisely where the scientific method, for example, comes in. We now, having seen, say, the “beauty” of an idea, look for possible alternates, and for ways to test them.
The core, on-topic issue here is the meaning of “other gods.” To my “natural” mind, the prescription of Deuteronomy seems horrific, alien, hostile, irrational, rigid, to be totally rejected. However, my training has become to seek to understand what is right about it. We could think of this as attempting to falsify my Already Always Listening immediate judgment. I’m suggesting that.
I’m suggesting that moving beyond the Deuteronomy position, instead of merely being contrary to it, we best first understand it. A sign of understanding it would be a recognition of “Yes, of course.” I.e., that the prescription makes sense, it was at least functional, in some way, within ordinary survival or tribal survival, and maybe even necessary.
I would never suggest “belief” as a starting place, that is far too fixed. I suggest “acceptance,” as one accepts a hypothesis and then considers the implications and likely consequences.
A Christian minister who was teaching a class on Islam at a local senior center once told me that his goal in teaching it was to convey it in such a way that Muslims would say, “Yes, that is what we believe.” We had a great time. He did not therefore reject his Christianity.
I will now claim that between a theism and atheism is only a narrow space.
I’ll claim that, for some, atheism is closer to truth than dogmatic religion. Much closer. A sane atheism rejects false gods. Does it reject Reality?
“I don’t think I have any god” demonstrates well that the usable concept of “god” has not been understood. No, we have gods, many. All of us do, I’ll claim. To explore this, we need to find usable meanings of the word.
Chaosmosis, above, has begun the inquiry, starting with an obvious possible god, his identity.
“Everywhere I go, there I am.” Great!
Is this true or false? The statement implies something fixed. To be investigated, is whether or not this ubiquity is rational. I’ll claim that it’s not, generally, it’s been inadequately specified.
Yudkowsky was a bit naive here, after all, this page is five years old. He ascribed the passage, Deuteronomy 13.7-11 to “God.” Why would we say that “God said that”?
Well, a quite incautious, naive, religious belief. It is a Christian trope that the Bible is the “:word of God.” But this was part of the Torah, and it’s a part where Moses is telling his people the Law. I’m not a theologian or an expert on scriptural exegesis, but, on the face, Moses, explicitly, in this story of what he said, says “I command you.”′
As a Muslim, I’ve no obligation to accept the literal buffeted text we call the Bible as, in itself, the Word of God, perfectly preserved. But suppose I accept that it is true. That would mean, only, that Moses said this. It would not mean that God said it. Again, following the story, Moses was obeying God, but doesn’t say,. “God said....”
This is a command of a tribal leader in tribal times, regarding the preservation of tribal identity, which is life-and-death under those conditions. It’s crazy to take this tribal command as a universal truth, applicable to all times and conditions. Sure, some do that. We already know that some people are crazy.
Yes, I could go further. But for now I’m merely suggesting that before drawing major conclusions from what is in any text, that we read the text itself, what it says about itself, and what we know about the context. What others say about the text exists on another level, which may have little or nothing to do with the text itself.
Surely that would depend on the passage and how he uses it. However, wasn’t arguing with Yudkowsky here, just pointing out that the little late discussion here was spinning off on that particular piece of unexamined exposition. I reread the piece, and I do come to something that may be interesting.
Yudkowsky is ascribing an “ur-mistake” to that passage, but he generalizes it, into a rigid adherence to a dogma or tightly-defined mission or, most importantly, group identity. That qualifies as an ur-mistake to me, at least for our time. It disables us from seeing the world-as-it-is, and that is now precisely our mission, our task as humans.
It leads us into the “affective death spiral,” and in some of the examples that came up, it’s literally a death spiral.
If so many people were not so harmed by it, it would be funny, the similarity between the fanatics in the world of Islam and the fanatics in the world of, say, fundamentalist Christianity. They are, from my point of view, on the same side, the side of hatred. In religious language, the side of Satan, whose goal is precisely that we fight each other, in order to demonstrate what pieces of dirt we are. (That’s almost a literal translation from the Qur’an.)
If God is real, and he actually said the thing about killing people who want to divert you from your faith, then he has every right because he is the one true god etc., and if God doesn’t exist and he didn’t say that, then Christianity IS a bad thing.
Possibly, but only if you think that morality would stem from authority even if God existed. Some people would disagree and say that humans should do what they think is right even if there is a God who tells them to do otherwise.
“Some people” (i.e., me) would say that God tells you to do what you know is right. (In Arabic, ma’ruwf, “good,” the root is ’arifa, implying knowledge.) So, on the authority of God, do so, even if someone tries to tell you God wants you to do something else. Today you don’t need to kill him, but he might be trying to kill you, i.e., to destroy your freedom.
If God tells you, directly, to do something else, try getting the right medication, you’ve got some killer voice in there. God doesn’t do that.
If your name is Abraham, my condolences.
I hope people don’t mind my tossing in the perspective of a Muslim rationalist here. Not all Muslims think this way; in fact, the particular school is the Mu’tazila, though the errors and maybe some innovations are mine.
I am somewhat curious how you define “Muslim rationalist” and how such a rationalist is different from, say, a Sikh rationalist, and whether the two can come to an Aumann agreement in religious matters.
You may be interested in difference, I’m more interested in agreement. I gave a link to the Wikipedia article on the Mu’tazila, not because I’m an “adherent” of the school, but simply to connect myself with Muslim tradition. I would expect, however, that a rationalist will find ample agreement with any other rationalist, as long as they have some substantial shared experience.
Thanks for the link on Aumann agreement. From the article, I find this hilarious.
I know that’s not what is meant, but the obvious pun is beautiful. If I know my own ass (presumably from a hole in the ground), I will know the ass of others who likewise know their own ass.
However, I do think that we can agree to disagree. Not necessarily rationally, that’s all, as to rational completeness. Sometimes we make choices that the work involved in tracking down the necessary conflicting assumptions or reasoning is not worth the expected gain.
The assumption of Aumann’s theorem is an empowering one, because it leads to expectation of agreement, making it far easier to find—and build or create—than with a contrary expectation.
No, I am interested in the definition, and you haven’t given one. My guess is that a qualifier for rationalism indicates a certain degree of compartmentalization, a refusal to give up some cherished beliefs. So I expect these beliefs to show up in your definition of a Muslim rationalist.
And yeah, the unintentional pun is hilarious, but also instructive: “I know my own ass” tends to be a false statement, as people are notoriously bad at noticing “the log in one’s own eye”, sorry for the biblical reference.
You asked about the difference. “Muslim” was not a “qualifier” of “rationalist.” I’m a rationalist who is a Muslim. I could just have easily have written “rationalist Muslim.” Your expectation was not unreasonable, but a poor guess.
I was using “ass” to refer to knowledge of self, including one’s one “assholery.” It’s true that most people don’t know it—or won’t admit it.
I’m just having trouble reconciling faith with rationality, so I hoped you’d explain how you do it.
Faith is a condition, you have faith, I’m sure, the question is in what.
Faith is not about text, credo, truth. What do you trust, shminux?
The Arabic word is imaan, trust, safety, security. It has nothing to do with right and wrong. In my own world, it means that I trust reality, as if it were my parent. That doesn’t resolve to any specific expectation.
And, by the way, this is normative for me. I do not absolutely trust reality, I’m afraid of this or that anyway.
If you have trouble reconciling apples with oranges, I’d think you could discriminate the difference. What is the difference between faith and rationality? Do you trust rationality?
Funny how you try shifting focus from my questions to you by getting defensive and asking me questions instead, but sure, I’ll play. My approach is similar to instrumentalism, so reality is just another useful model. So are right vs wrong, which are useful in some limited contexts, and faith, whose usefulness is even more limited, mostly to cognitive studies.
Now, what I asked you is “why Muslim?”, and you keep evading the question. I will disengage unless I see an honest attempt at an answer.
Why Muslim? I’m Muslim, that’s why!
“Muslim” is an Arabic word, and the Qur’an distinguishes it from Mu’min, “faithful.” Faith is a higher condition. You did not ask me “why Muslim,” in the post to which I was responding. You “hoped” that I would explain how I “reconcile” faith with rationality. Apples and oranges.
You want me to answer questions, but won’t define the terms in your questions. So if you prefer to disengage, fine. I’m losing Karma with every attempt to answer. Basically, you ask a question, +3 for you. I answer, −2. You challenge, +2. I answer, let’s see what happens. It’s not looking good.
I will say that it all looks to me like prior rejection. Not surprising, I suppose. Walled garden?
FWIW, I’m not the one who downvoted you. Actually, I’ll upvote your every comment in this discussion now, since I appreciate you being engaged. And I hope others will switch from “I don’t like this comment” mode and into “it’s interesting to see a Muslim openly discussing faith and rationality, so it’s worth an upvote.
Well, presumably you were brought up as one, or maybe converted as an adult, as many do. If it’s the former, why not have a look around for what you look in faith and see if Islam is the best? Maybe Buddhism or something would work better? If it’s the latter, how did you choose Islam over other religions?
Thanks, shminux. I’m quite accustomed to being quickly rejected. (I’ve been “conferencing,” we used to call it, since the 1980s on the W.E.L.L., where I was a moderator.) The common comment is tl;dr. But when I’m succinct, I’m also not understood. Getting it just right, under most conditions, can be a tad difficult in writing, which is very narrow-bandwidth. Sometimes it’s not clear that there even is a “just right.” The optimized writing, for some readerships, might be none at all.
Now, to your questions. Along with most who accepted Islam as adults, we don’t say “converted.” I started out as an agnostic/atheist in my teens, but then life demonstrated something else to me, and that’s a long story. I was, for a time, a student of Buddhism, and could still be called a Buddhist. I translated the Heart Sutra from the Sanskrit, in my 20s, and had some great correspondence with Edward Conze. Fun.
However, I eventually read the Qur’an, and saw something in it, a, shall we say, familiar message. Some of it seemed really weird. So, eventually, I began to read it in Arabic. The weirdness almost entirely disappeared. Artifact of translation. Again, this would be a long conversation in itself.
I did not “choose Islam over other religions.” There is no “over” and, in a sense, there is no “other” as well. Rather, I accepted what I came to understand was the Qur’an. I trust it as a “message from Reality.” The definition of “Muslim” can be boiled down to that, essentially.
But everything is a message from Reality.
The Qur’an appears to me as remarkably clear, but that certainly could be because Arabic is a context-driven language, each word is derived from root meanings, with the specific meaning being supplied by context, and that context includes our individual understandings.
If I thought that beating women is a-okay, there is a famous verse that could confirm it for me. However, given my own context, that verse, as commonly translated, seemed quite weird, uncharacteristically unjust, really bad advice. Looking at Arabic, the word translated as “beat” is “adrib.” The word means “strike,” the correspondence in English is pretty good. “Beat” is repeated striking, and would be shown as a different grammatical form. “Beat” is a terrible translation. By men, of course.
Okay, “strike.” Still sounds bad, eh? However, what does “strike” mean? It’s only in a context where physical striking is expected that we come up with the negative meaning. “Strike up the band” doesn’t mean whack them. “Strike a metaphor”—an actual Qur’anic usage—doesn’t mean “crush it.” Say something “striking” or take a ’striking” action—something to get her attention—is probably the meaning, to me. And I could then relate this to the textual context, and it makes sense. Do something unexpected. Being a bully is boring, it doesn’t work, not to create fulfilling marriages.
And for the Buddhism question, my turn to ask. What does “work better” mean?
I’d love to hear it. If you have it on your blog, feel free to link. Or PM me, if you like.
That confuses me. My understanding is that Muslims warship the same God Hebrews and Christians do, so one must accept this concept over whatever other religions profess.
Well, clearly you have a need for a supernatural component in your worldview, apparently due to your life experiences. This is hardly unusual, though often suppressed, and EY confesses to nearly the same in The Magnitude of His Own Folly:
though his alief) at the time was in a Just Universe rather than in an explicit God.
So why is it that
when you read Qur’an in Arabic? Do you think that this is one of those untranslatables (like those EY described in his short fiction Three Worlds Collide), or can it be expressed in English?
None of this would be particularly usable in terms of argument or convincing someone else. I saw “coincidences” on a level that made no sense, without there being what could be called “something more” than the ordinary world of cause and effect, operating only locally. Like three events that did not occur to me before or since, that would be rare for anyone, and that all happened, seemingly independently, one after the other, on one day, in about an hour. And that seemed to mean something. Basically, something like “Don’t worry, it’s covered.”
And I also experienced something directly, it would be called “mystical” here, except that it’s really quite ordinary. It’s a shift in perspective. Suppose that we are seeing all of life through a mirror. We don’t realize this, because we don’t see the signs that the mirror exists, we don’t see the edges. Sometimes we might see that the mirror is dirty, though. I won’t go there yet.
However, what does a mirror look like? Suppose that a mirror has a certain characteristic color. Let’s call that color “clarity.” Suppose that one has a faculty for seeing that color. (I suspect we all do.)
This isn’t “scientific.” There is no way to show that there is any “clarity” other than the reality of what is reflected. Or directly seen. It’s an experience, though, and because of it, the whole elementary level of Zen koans became transparent for me, and when I asked a Zen master about this, he confirmed it. I was something like 22 years old. I didn’t have training, I was just lucky, or something.
I don’t consider this truly significant, but I could probably write a book about it. It’s not the way I think any more, particularly. Again, all this did for me was to connect me with wide religious traditions, which I saw, then, as referring to experience that was not the “ordinary way” of looking at things. I’ve not fully expressed this at all, I was just describing the gateway that I walked through.
Because I wasn’t taught by any individual or within any tradition, I didn’t have a method for transmitting this. I was able to confirm some others, though. Landmark Education, however, is teaching “transformation,” and a crucial part of that is the concept of “nothing.” It can easily sound like total BS, but … people actually—and with reasonable reliability—experience it, can talk about it with each other, it is easily visible, and it has transformative value, people do become more competent, more effective, happier, fully self-expressed, etc. Call it “clearing away the cobwebs,” perhaps. Again, clarity itself. No content.
Okay, sorry about confusing you, that’s not my goal. You are referring to “bulk behavior,” that more or less assumes that Muslims and Jews and Christians “worship the same God.” Sort of. But each of those categories covers a huge variety of actual beliefs. Some Christian concepts of God are very different from some Muslim concepts. When I said that there is no “over” I meant that I wasn’t rejecting anything by accepting Islam. And when I said that there is no “other” (religion), I meant that “lslam” is a name—this is standard—for the natural relationship of the human to Reality.
(That’s very standard Islam, only I use the term Reality to refer to God. Color me ecumenical.)
What “other religions,” then? Buddhism is actually a whole set of religions, there is a huge variation. Many Buddhists don’t accept the “Buddhist mythology,” just the actual practice, the psychology, if you will. Buddhism has been considered an “atheist religion,” because some forms don’t refer to a deity at all. My interest, though, is in what those who actually practice Buddhism experience. Why would I be interested in rejecting this or in thinking my own experience superior?
I’m not sure what “supernatural” means. Out of the ordinary? But isn’t deep rationalism out of the ordinary? What are we talking about?
There is something called, loosely, “causeless joy.” Call it “existential joy.” Is it real? I really don’t know, I just know that it’s really cool! In the end, whatever I experience is a state of the brain, a pile of patterns, right? Except for one thing. What is this “I” that supposedly is having this experience? There is a pile of patterns, that’s a practically universal understanding—and very Buddhist, the skandhas. But is there anything else? I’d say, sure, but I can’t prove it. What else there is, I’ll call Reality. I can’t prove that Reality exists, but so what?
I don’t talk about “belief in God,” not for myself. Certainly many people use this language, but, for me, and in my reading of the Qur’an, the issue is a basic relationship with Reality. What you pointed out from EY was a kind of trust in Reality, he called it the Universe.
Is Reality sentient? That would be more of the issue, eh? I don’t know. I am simply moved to trust it.
Now, as to the Qur’an, it’s pretty simple. It’s not that the Qur’an is “untranslatable,” per se, it is that each word in Arabic has a huge number of possible meanngs, and to translate it into English requires choosing English meanings, and the English set of meanings for a word is often very different from the Arabic set of meanings. So by translating it, one is “specifying” the meaning more than what was present in the original (and/or possibly adding new meanings). And this is necessarily limited by the understanding of the translator. From what I’ve seen, the best isn’t nearly good enough, and the task is largely impossible, unless one replaces a “translation” with an explanation that covers every possible meaning of a text, and that would be … huge. And would still doubtless be incomplete.
Two of the followers of the Prophet were arguing about the text. One said it went a certain way, call it A. The other said, no, it was B. So they went to the Prophet. He listened to the first, and said, “Yes.” He listened to the second, and said, “Yes.” And then he said that the Qur’an was revealed in seven dialects, and that each dialect carried seven levels of meaning.
It might help to understand that “seven” is common Arabic usage for “many.” That tradition is a commonly-accepted one. It kind of blows the fundamentalists out of the water.
The Qur’an calls itself a “reminder.” I read that as implying that it will only show us what we already know.
Is this specific to the Arabic language, or is it just the mismatch there will be between any two languages? I note that Christians take a completely different view of their sacred text: it must be provided to everyone in their own language, the better for them to understand it.
I would be interested to see your exegesis of some specific passage from the Qur’an along these lines. Perhaps as a top-level discussion post. I’ve read it in English translation (this translation), and to my eyes it consists mostly of exhortations to believe and promises of doom to unbelievers, and almost nothing about what anyone is expected to believe or to do beyond allegiance to the tribe. Randomly dropping into this online version yielded eight suras consisting of nothing else, and two that contained that plus some rather sketchily recounted stories.
What is it a reminder of? My reading of it reminds me only of the leaders of the ant colonies in T.H. White’s The Once and Future King.
It’s not specific to Arabic, but Arabic is particularly amenable to such wide interpretation.
Well, what Christians? Some Christians do insist on studying the “relatively original” texts.
And the problem Christians face is different. To some extent, they don’t have the original text. They only have translations (at best) and rumors (in the other direction.)
Much Christian opinion (as with much Muslim opinion) is preposterous. In order to revere the Bible, as “the Word of God,” and especially what they will hold up and thump or whatever they do, they have to create a whole doctrine of “inspired translation.” They have to assume, as well, that there is a message that can be translated, one size fits all, equivalent. No wonder the standard Christian story is so … dumb.
(I hasten to add that there are lots of Christians who understand it differently, and, in my experience, they more that they actually know about their religion, the broader their view. The naive fundamentalist view is largely ignorant of Christian tradition, not only of other possibilities.)
What happens with a text like the Qur’an, or the Torah, or the Gospels, is that they are interpreted, and that the interpretations come to be considered the original message, so much so that the original message practically disappears—even if the text is being read in the original language.
I read what’s reported of Jesus in the Gospels, and don’t notice that he claims to be God. He said some other things that are so interpreted, even though there are alternate interpretations that, in some cases, are extremely simple and consistent with the context. I’ve gone over these passages with Christians, on occasion. It is as if they can’t hear the alternate meanings, they keep saying, “But he said …!”
However, they don’t know what he said. He didn’t speak Greek, for starters, as far as we can tell. The only actual words of Jesus purportedly preserved were the words on the cross, kept in Aramaic, the language of the people of the time. (Aramaic and Arabic are very similar.)
Now as to Qur’anic exegesis, I’d be happy to look at any particular passage, indeed,it’s an obligation (it’s that “Muslim” thing, though it’s also broader, I do feel an obligation to respond on topics where I have unusual knowledge) . I can’t create top level posts, though my karma has been coming back up from the initial big whack. But I can respond to them.
It doesn’t say. I can only say what’s obvious to me, from my own experience of it. It’s a reminder of life, of our relationship with Reality, and we all, if we study and carefully consider ourselves, already know what it would remind us of. But there still is a language problem.
Or it’s not for you. The Qur’an does not, as some might assume, condemn “non-Muslims.” It warns against the consequences of denial, though. Yup. Be careful, eh? (And the Book says that it is for those who seek to be careful, it just doesn’t create a Careful Club, with badges that will ward off Hellfire, just say the magic words.
Rumi made the point.
He describes the situation of the castle of a King, defended by dogs. Someone coming, unwelcome, to the castle, telling the dogs, “I take refuge in the King from your viciousness,” will be torn to pieces by them. No, only if the visitor is actually clinging to the “hem of the King” will they be safe. Rumi was asserting that the most common ritual phrase in Islam, repeated with every prayer session, was useless unless it represented a reality.
An actual refuge being taken in Reality, an actual trust in Reality, I’ve been saying.
There is a good chance that you understood none of it. That’s okay. It’s not in your language, and was not explained to you consistently with your existing accepted concepts (i.e., creating a bridge).. You expected something different from a book. This is no ordinary book, even if we simply look at it from a point of view of history.
If communication is the purpose, that is a defect, not a virtue.
Yes. If accurate, unambiguous communication is the purpose, that’s true, though for that purpose, even in English, terms must be specifically defined for context. Jargon. Seems to me that this happens around here.
If a different form of communication is the purpose, such as with poetry, Arabic might even be optimal.
However, the Qur’an does explain why it’s in Arabic. It’s because Muhammad was Arab. And so was his community.
Did you notice the place where I mentioned that each of the seven “dialects” (sets of meanings for words) and the seven “interpretations” was confirmed by the Prophet as being legitimate? I assume, for some purpose.
The Leader Astray is one of the names of God, for example. The Qur’an is not a science textbook, in spite of some rather naive and enthusiastic claims by some Muslims.
Well, duh. For the same reason, the Torah is in Hebrew, the New Testament was originally in Greek, and the Buddhist scriptures were originally in Pali. It’s almost as if, to communicate an idea to people, you have to express it in their language. Fancy that!
I did, but I lack your faith in the value of ambiguity and obscurity, regarding them instead as deepity engines.
I’d caution against creating a TLP on virtues of Islam, or any other religion for that matter. While it might be obvious to you that Islam is like nothing else, the inferential gap to the LW community is basically uncrossable, so you will only get whacked again. The general understanding is that Eliezer has adequately dealt with faith and religion when discussing belief in belief, and that Reductionism does not need faith, let alone any specific religion or scripture. I am guessing that the inferential gap works the other way, too: you likely misunderstand some of the standard ideas accepted and discussed here. It would be a good exercise in rational thinking to identify and analyze such inferential gaps between you and the more mainstream LWers.
The general understanding is that none of that particular topic is unique to Eliezer, who mentions (but doesn’t always cite) his sources on “belief in belief” — specifically Sagan and Dennett.
I would also caution against using the idea “mainstream LWers” ….
Right. I did not mean to imply that it was original research, though I suspect that he reproduced much of it on his own before matching with the existing literature.
My definition of a “mainstream LWer” is someone who adopts the Reductionism sequence without any significant reservations. Whether it’s a good definition may be open to debate.
My definition of “phyggery” is … ah, never mind.
This “general understanding” might be so for some (most?) in the LW community, but my prior on that is, like, highly unlikely that a single individual in a few words has “adequately dealt” with centuries of human experience and thought and inquiry. What is quite possible is that EY has addressed certain outlines of the subject;.Generally I’m in agreement with him, but also see certain unexplored points. I’m continuing to read, and as I read more, I find both more agreement and more of what I usually call “edges.”
I wouldn’t dream of “creating a TLP on ‘virtues of Islam.’ Wrong place, for sure. I’m far more interested in rationality and the stated goals of this blog.
However, there was a whole school of Islam, dominant for a time, called the “rationalists,” and science was considered compatible with Islam for centuries. That’s an Islam that, I assume, most LWians haven’t contacted. So there may be some room for this, that’s all.
I’m quite aware that atheism is the standard belief here. However, is that a rational necessity? (And if it is, I’m still interested in the question of what atheism is. I do not think of it as being “wrong.”)
What is “obvious” to me is not what is being inferred by some from what I’ve written, nor would I expect it would be obvious to others who don’t share the necessary referents. I simply offered to respond if asked.
Fubarobfusco, thanks for the link. I’ll check that out. I do not imagine that LWers are monolithic, though some may imagine that their own opinions are the opinions of the group. Maybe. More likely, not, though they might dominate.
edit: I’d already read that, and TheSimpleTruth. I’ve been looking for a while, and I haven’t seen an examination of “faith and religion,” but only of certain naive ideas about them. I’m pretty sure that a higher degree of sophistication exists here. But I can’t yet prove it. Where should I look?
OK, thank you for describing what you mean by being a “Muslim rationalist”. Certainly EY or most regulars would not use the word rationality to describe your worldview, because it appears incompatible with Reductionism, though I suppose it should not prevent you from being instrumentally rational.
You are welcome, shminux. Since you used this collection of letters, “reductionism,” and appear to posit that my view is “incompatible” with it, I looked it up. Yukdowsky’s article, for starters. Aside from EY using the device of positing a series of stupid arguments to refute, and being a bit naive about what others “believe,” when he actually gets to the definition, it seems quite like the way I think. In fact, if I hadn’t noticed this many times, reading his work, I’d not be bothering with LW at all.
Yet I’m suspicious of any “ism,” a high-level abstraction, proposed as if representing reality. Indeed, wouldn’t a reductionist be suspicious?
Reductionism as a practical approach, fine.
Now, I notice that EY, in the post, capitalizes Reality.
He’s expressing, first, a reductionist position. It is indeed an “ism.” It proposes itself as what is “really” so (but, to his credit, he qualifies it: as far as we can tell. Setting aside a quibble about “we,” that’s fine).
He is pointing to a unity, but is describing that unity in terms of present understanding (“elementary particle fields and fundamental forces”). Take out the “really,” understand “physics” as a heuristic, a method of making predictions, a map rather than the territory, and I’m right with him, down to capitalizing Reality, because it becomes a proper noun.
A proper noun that happens to have, it seems, amazing “computing power.” Now, my question: is this “computing power” intelligent?
If you have an answer, coming from knowledge, I’d love to hear how you know it. I’d answer the question myself, but these comments are already long.
I guess we should first agree on what the term “intelligent” means. I do not have a good definition, but let’s borrow the one given by Eliezer. It ought to be an instrumentally good one, given that constructing an intelligence (a “friendly” one) is his life’s goal:
Now, I assume that your definition would not be identical to his, so feel free to express it here.
Smart.
[edit: I didn’t see an alternate meaning for what I wrote. I meant that it was smart to check for or seek agreement on the meaning, not that “intelligent” means “smart,” a mere synonym.]
The post refers to a definition, but doesn’t state it. A previous post has a definition:
I read this as an ability to “solve problems” efficiently, “cross-domain,” i.e., not just in some narrow field. In our discussion, I quote EY as referring to Reality as if it has huge computational ability.
My own thinking has reflected on the “omniscience” and “omnipotence” of God as being almost a tautology: Reality knows all things, and over all things has power.
Reality, however, is not an “artificial intelligence,” although artificial intelligence may exist, may be real. If it exists, it is limited by its computational power. The computational power of Reality will necessarily be greater. It may not be unlimited though. The Many Worlds interpretation might extend the power of Reality almost infinitely.
On the other hand, is Reality “efficient”?
I have no confidence in these ideas as “truth,” but do see them as possibly useful, in terms of the relationship with Reality that might be fostered by them.
So, if you agree with EY’s definition of intelligence, where do you think you two diverge, him being an atheist and you a Muslim?
I don’t know that we diverge. We have not discussed this. Do remember, above, that I said that the difference between a theist and atheist was only a thin space. It might not even be an important space. However, that could depend on what he means by “atheist” and what I mean by “Muslim,” which has been the whole point of this discussion, coming as commentary on EY’s “Uncritical Supercriticality.”
His post seems to me to be about this problem we have of making assumptions about people and positions from affliiations, and what amount to political responses to real or imagined difference. “The affective death spiral.” Thanks, shminux, for the questions you ask, which, in my experience, bring insight.
You are most welcome, though my assessment of our exchange is less glowing, given that neither of us changed their worldview to any significant degree.
Give it time.
Dude, you don’t get to distrust “ism”s when you belong to an organized religion. Some even-handedness, please!
I’ve seen a lot of things, like bananas, planes, philosophical dissertations, moods, religious experiences, and equations. In each case where I was able to look, I found that those things were made of parts, and that if you removed the parts and their interactions there was nothing left over. In each case where someone told me otherwise, they had no convincing evidence. Therefore, I don’t believe anyone who says “Maybe the true laws of nature aren’t reductionist after all” if they can’t show me an exception to current theories that looks non-reductionist.
You said earlier
and talk about reality being intelligent. The way I understand your claim is a sort of pantheism, where the universe is an intelligent, divine being. (I know very little of Muslim worldviews but that’s not the sort of theological claim I associate with Islam.) I can see the appeal, but if there’s intelligence, where’s the brain? I’ve never seen intelligence that didn’t come from a very specific kind of structure. Show me how the universe has that structure, or why the mountains of evidence against disembodied intelligence are invalid.
You also said
Augh what the fuck is wrong with you, reality kills 150000 people everyday and does nothing against torture, why would you ever trust it?
On an unrelated note, which bits of the Qur’an struck you most? I’ve tried to read the thing several times, but it’s even more boring that the genealogical parts of the Bible, and all I’ve gathered so far is “OBEY”, which is right there in the name, and platitudes like “Be just, don’t be evil”.
“Belong to an organized religion.” Huh? Do they own me? MixedNuts thinks I don’t mistrust “Islamism?” Where did that come from?
Problem is, this is a non-reductionist point of view, because it asserts that a map is the territory. “Reductionist” is, as described by Yudkowsky, an absence rather than a presence, but it is being asserted here as an absolute quality of “the true laws of nature.” Nature doesn’t have laws, AFAIK, we invent them as summary methods for predicting our experience, and someone who believes Nature does have this construct called “laws” is not reductionist. Want to be a reductionist, toss that belief.
I’m not seeing that I’m being read carefully. I did not “talk about Reality being intelligent.” I asked a question.
I didn’t claim what was asserted. Rather, I note it as some kind of possibility. In one sense, though, I can state something logically. If we are intelligent, and if we are real, then Reality must be intelligent. However, I do have some doubt about our intelligence, as well as our reality.
MixedNuts, you have a concept of “Muslim” as if it comprehensively identifies the world view of someone who admits being Muslim. I pointed to the Mu’tazila as a historical counter-example, what is called the “rationalist” school in Islam. Not that I “believe in” the “Mu’taziliyya positions.”
It seems to be that you are attempting to stuff the thinking of an individual (me) into some set of fixed categories. How does that work for you? Does it help you to understand people?
Fascinating. Where is your brain, MixedNuts? Does it exist in the universe? (These are questions, not insults!) Does your brain have the quality of “intelligence”?
If so, then does not Reality necessarily have the quality of intelligence?
Where did you get this “disembodied” from? (That might be something to do with SuperTheostoa.) I asked a question about Reality and intelligence. It could also be considered to be a question as to the nature of intelligence.
I’m being read with a pile of assumptions being added. That may be useful if it leads to the assumptions being identified as such. Is that possible?
There is no “mountain of evidence” against “disembodied intelligence.” In fact, I haven’t seen one piece of such. Which is no reason to accept disembodied intelligence, we don’t accept propositions merely because there is no evidence against them. Unless, of course, we want to, or choose to. It might be useful, for this or that purpose.
It seems my comment about trust in reality struck home in some way. MixedNuts does not trust Reality, many people don’t trust Reality. I mentioned that as a possibility. I did not suggest that one should trust reality. For some people, there may be no possibility of choice, for starters, but an irresolvable distrust in Reality is a psychopathology, it leads to many dysfunctions.
Why would I trust Reality?
Because I’ve got no fucking choice, that’s why. Or, more accurately, a Hobson’s choice. If I don’t trust Reality, I have no way of knowing anything, not to mention I have a life of utter insecurity. And, yes, people live such lives.
Apparently there is a meme here that death is horrible, and so too is torture. I can get on board the latter, because torture doesn’t seem to be inevitable, but death is inevitable. Sooner or later. Run the math on the risks. (But this is a factual assertion, and, of course, could be wrong. I just wouldn’t bet on it.)
Stuff exists—or appears to exist—that many of us detest as human beings. That’s obvious. What does this mean about Reality itself? It does demolish naive conceptions of Reality, for sure. Or of God. Same thing!
Obey. Great! I’m not sure what passage is being referred to, and this is certainly coming from translation. The only common equivalent I come up with in Arabic for “to obey” is aslam. It means to accept. Accept what?
Reality.
Aslamtu li r-rabbi ’l-^alamiyn. I accept the Lord of the Worlds (^alamiyn). I think it was Abraham who said that, but I forget. “Worlds” is a term that could refer to nations, but I find more meaning from the root, ^ilm, to know. The realms of knowledge.
I could look up Qur’anic usages of the root SLM, and of other words that might mean “obey,” if anyone is interested.
Yes, reading the Qur’an will be boring, if you read the translation of someone with a boring world-view. If you are looking for what is wrong with it, you will also be bored. It will be slogging through piles of symbols that are mostly meaningless.
Just an idea: you create the meaning. You see what you choose to see, when it comes to seeing “meaning.”
Finding deep meaning is difficult with narrow translations. Someone familiar with Arabic, but stuck with piles of traditional interpretations (the “right” ones), may just find confirmation of them. Nevertheless, I’ve found Muslim scholars to be usually quite open-minded. There are exceptions, scholars who pander to the fundamentalists.
My approach was different. I had to depend, initially, on translations, but when a verse seemed “difficult,” I looked up the words, and I usually had come to know the biases of the translator. Then I read the whole book in Arabic. Initially, I knew only the pronunciations, roughly. (I eventually got some classical training.) Then I read it again. And again.… I started to memorize it, from the beginning. As I did this, meaning that made sense—the only useful kind—started to pop out commonly, instead of just occasionally. I started to have the basis for routine recognition. Like a child.
I used to hate memorization, I had no respect for rote learning. Goes to show.
Yes.
No. A few small parts of it do: human brains, to a lesser extent other animals, and that’s it, as far as we’ve seen. There might also be intelligent aliens somewhere in the vastness.
If that’s enough to say that Reality has the quality of intelligence, it is also enough to say the Reality has the qualities of being inebriated, sober, radioactive, inert, rarefied, dense, at 3 degrees C, at 10 million degrees C, every possible colour and none.
ETA: In other words, “Reality has the quality of intelligence” is a deepity: true in a trivial sense and false in a trivial sense, but when the two senses are expressed by the same sentence, it sounds profound.
How?
Incidentally, I suspect that you would not hold some of the beliefs you appear to hold if you had read the sequences. That’s not a criticism as such, but still.
I don’t think you don’t mistrust Islam as a concept. I think you tackle the concepts directly, rather than adding an extra barrier of “this is an abstracted ideology, I don’t buy those”. You call yourself a Muslim, not an independent theologian with ideas from Islam.
Well obviously, once you accept that everything else follows. What I’m asking is why you think that, give that it looks very lawful: objects fall down, energy is conserved, if a prediction is true on Monday it stays true on Tuesday, every exception to known rules turns out to obey deeper rules with practical consequences we can exploit. Why can’t we just say “The thing has looked absolutely lawful for millenia, case closed”?
?!?!??
As I see it, the reduction that works best is “Here are the elementary particles, here are the laws that govern them, everything else follows from that. Maybe the particles and laws are also made of parts, we’re still looking.”. I can’t see what’s non-reductionist about natural laws—I’m not even sure reductions are possible without some laws, though they don’t have to be as rigorous as ours look.
Cell membranes are permeable to water, I contain cell membranes, I am not permeable to water. By “reality” we do mean the set of cell phones and pineapples and copies of Alice in Wonderland and horses and so on, right? Clearly, whether it’s real-in-some-philosophical-sense or not, it contains intelligence: you, me, Deep Blue. But the whole set doesn’t seem to be intelligent itself; to coordinate its intelligent parts into a higher-level structure, or to build intelligence out of non-intelligent parts.
And if it’s not an intelligent being that can make decisions, or even a perfectly lawful mechanism you can control if you understand it well enough, I have to stop asking why you trust it and ask what trusting it even means.
I have no clue what I said that sounded even vaguely like that. I mean, I know at least two Muslims, so I can see there’s no Muslim hive mind. And I said in so many words that I don’t understand either your worldview or any other Islam-flavored worldview.
Dichotomy. Either it’s embodied, and I want to know where and why it can be called “reality’s intelligence” rather than “several billion entirely unrelated intelligences”, or it’s not and I want to know how that works.
You don’t have to trust the whole thing. You can trust your perceptions not to go so wonky you won’t be able to correct for them, or individual people not to stab you in the face, for example. If you trust anything to keep you out of major trouble, that’s certainly going to be relaxing but you can in fact get in major trouble.
I do not accept that inevitable things are thereby okay. It doesn’t seem that I can make torture less bad by building a world where torture is very likely, so by continuity making it inevitable changes nothing. If a horrible dictator conquers the world and nobody can escape I don’t endorse accepting that. How do you derive an “ought” from that “is”?
So what is the sophisticated answer that makes it okay? I’ve seen attempts, but they were less than convincing.
Nah, I’m referring to a general idea, not a specific passage. Things about submitting (probably the kind of acceptance you’re talking about), being humble, playing by the rules, encouraging others to do the same, and so on. Which I’m used to seeing as an introduction to “Now here are the specific intricate rules about tying shoes”, not as the main point.
Man, I just wanted to Have Read An Important Cultural Work. So I suppose I need to read it with the eyes of a typical reader. Which I can’t have because I haven’t read the thing. Well, crap.
Huh, interesting. Why is the Qur’an then superior to the Bible, the Epic of Gilgamesh, Tintin, or a blank piece of paper?
Also, how do you know that you accept the Qur’an, rather than just projecting on it what you already believe? Or is there no difference?
This would be a good time to define what you mean by a physical law. Likely it is not the same as what Abd means. I am guessing that you assign some meaning to this term other than “it’s a useful mathematical model for humans to explain and predict some of the stuff they see sometimes”. I’m guessing further that Abd concludes from your implied (and possibly misunderstood) definition that if physical laws are guiding “reality” than they are not reducible to quarks and leptons themselves, which does call the whole idea of reductionism in question.
I’d suggest clarifying this concept first before arguing about it.
Thanks, shminux. Yes, you understood me. I do get the sense, though, that MixedNuts is getting it. We’ll see.
Aristotelian logic, right? Look at the assumption:
“entirely unrelated.” Where did that come from? If they are intelligent, and if the Reality that they encounter is connected, they are not unrelated.
Something is missing here. There is an intelligence that transcends human intelligence, and it is possible for any of us to experience it. Landmark routinely accomplishes this, failure is rare. It’s called the Self in Landmark, sometimes they capitalize the whole word, SELF.
My theory or understanding is that the Self is what arises or is experienced when two (or more) human brains are entrained, when their thinking is coherent and free. It’s not mere “social reality,” where people agree on memes. The intelligence of the Self. compared to that of an individual human, could be like the intelligence of an ant colony compared to that of an individual ant. To me, faced with this experience, the Self seems to be unlimited. However, I do assume that it is limited, in fact, it’s simply operating in another realm, a realm not accessible to me as an individual.
By the way, in Landmark, this distinction is communicated in the Advanced Course. The Forum brings people into contact with it, but not explicitly.
I tested this. I told a story to people who had taken the Advanced Course (and that requires the Forum as a prerequisite).
“The Forum is about becoming free of the limitations of our past—they nod—the Advanced Course is about this.”
Everyone who has taken the AC, when I’ve said that, has lit up. It’s palpable, I’m sure it could be measured psychometrically. (And I just met a neurologist, a scientist, just completing the same training I completed, who is working on that). People who haven’t, mostly, ask “About what?”
And if I try to explain it, well, I may be reacting from within my own world of survival, looking good, being right, blah blah. I’m not being there. And for that test to work as a test, I have to be there, with that very person.
While people who have experienced this, in any of various approaches—Landmark certainly doesn’t own this—can talk about it with each other, I’ve never seen it successfully explained to anyone who hadn’t experienced it. And I didn’t experience anything like this, myself, until my mid-thirties. I was way too caught in my own head.
In other words, “multiple intelligences” may not be independent at all. In the example I gave from Landmark, there is a high-bandwidth connection. It’s not just words, which are very low-bandwidth. It’s the small muscle movements, the eyes, tone of voice, the presence of the person, that allows this connection. To experience that presence, we have to have dropped, or be able to drop, the “chatter” that normally dominates most brain activity, and attend to what is actually present. Reality, right here, right now.
I.e., the collective intelligence of a group might be far higher than that of any individual, so much higher that the individual may not be able to perceive on understand it, but can only notice it, by certain marks, and accept it.
The mark that I would point to first is clarity, but there are also other marks like love, joy, compassion, courage, that are not about individual survival. Landmark is not just about this experience, however, because it’s understood that this can be merely something pleasant (or transiently ecstatic), so it’s tested, against real-world measures, that show the operation of higher intelligence. Long story.
So, your deity-like thing is distributed among human brains, and synchronizes by communication between humans?
Once when attending Mass a a child, I felt like I was connected to some unfathomable entity, and connected through it to the other people in the church. Is that anything like what you’re referring to? (The other people were actually bored out of their skulls and discreetly making fun of the prayers. Probably a bad example.)
So, yeah, if groups of appropriately behaving people can and do act as morally better and smarter than individuals, that’s awesome and possibly worship-worthy. (Possibly because I worship anything that looks at me the right way, but still.)
But I was under the impression that Islam involved a deity that created the universe, and had more power over it than a group of well-coordinated humans. (Like, programming an oven to announce floods.) The only way I see this claim could be salvaged is heavy solipsism (well, it’s more like pluripsism in that case), that non-sentient objects are created by this hive mind. In which case, who’s the asshole who decided on malaria?
Okay, this is a “deity-like thing.” It’s not a deity. It’s a thing. I gave examples showing the arising of something more than individual intelligence, and by that I mean immediate intelligence, not something built up (like the collection of experimental reports—which is another kind of intelligence).
I assume that your experience was real. What you were experiencing, and what you might make it mean, are distinct. I’m referring, though, to something more demonstrable, that might have been present for you in that moment as a beginning, a taste. Not as the full monte.
Someone else might have a similar experience with scientific insight. Suppose that the “unfathomable entity” was simply Reality, and everyone there was in some kind of relationship with Reality. Some might be bored, contemptuous, but some might be in awe as well. Frankly, I think Reality is awesome.
You are still defining all this as if your personal judgment of “better” is real, but, yes. It’s not that your personal judgment is “wrong,” that would be just as much of a story.
And your comment about your response to what “looks at you the right way” is an accurate description of what most of us do, most of the time, even if we think we are “rational.”
The concept behind the impression is one that separates the “deity” from the “universe,” one object that controls another. Reality allows us to imagine that we have power over it, but that’s a product of how we think about it.
For survival, we have found that results are usually correlated with our actions, in certain ways. If our actions are not founded in an acceptance of reality-as-it-is, however, they are likely to be ineffective, so the more effective actions likely involve “acceptance.” Islam is the Arabic word for this.
(If we have developed an inaccurate model, that perhaps worked under some circumstance but not others, what happens when we encounter the “deviations” depends on whether we believe the model or not. I.e., believe that the model is real, that it is not merely a model.
If we believe the model, our strong human tendency is to reject observations of difference, violations, if we even notice them.
If we don’t believe the model, but simply use it—or, in the case of many models, weallow it to function without explicit consciousness that it is a model, but without formalizing it as a belief—we have the possibility of improving the model, or even of discarding it in favor of something else, or nothing at all.) We, in this case, place Reality as superior to any model.
The power of Reality, though, is without effort. (Qur’an.) There is no separation between the intention and the realization.
The asshole who decided on malaria had less intelligence than a mosquito. Apparently, intelligence is over-rated.
Okay, malaria exists. We are developing the power to choose otherwise, and that power already applies over much of the Earth. The same power is also bringing new risks. I propose that we are responsible. This is not merely happening to us, we are creating it.
Do you mean “Reality” as in “this stick of deodorant, and this penguin, and this meson, and this symphony, and this greengrocer, and so on”? Because it is pretty cool, and everything in it has ties of various natures and strengths to everything else which is pretty cool to, and totally has the number two spot on the list of things I worship. (Number one is the ability to feel worshippy-awed emotions. Bootstraps.)
But it seems to want things like “quantum evolution should be unitary”, not things like “no child should be driven to suicide”. I admire the set-of-things-that-exist, but I don’t approve of it. Yes, it contains moral agents, and those agents have to change it from the inside because there’s no outside, but it also contains shitty parts. Can’t see why I should be accepting the whole deal.
Dude. You need separate words for “believing it exists” and “not shrieking ‘Augh kill it with fire’”. Of course if I pretend the stove can’t burn people it won’t be harmless. That doesn’t mean I’m fine with the stove burning people.
Behaving as if a model works is most of what I mean by “belief” in the first place. Sure, don’t get overattached to a model, and keep checking it.
I’m not sure I get it. If you mean “Whatever happens is what reality wants to happen”, then clearly reality only ever wants the force to be equal to the charge times the electric field or something. Yeah, fine, it also wants some people to have a desire to eradicate malaria and a good shot at succeeding after a few millennia. But since it can do anything, why didn’t it want malaria not to exist in the first place?
If your answer is along the lines of “It can’t decide to want stuff”, please explain why it’s something you like rather than an extremely shiny toy. If it’s along the lines of “It decided that way”, please explain why it’s something you like rather than an unspeakably evil cosmic monster. If it’s along the lines of “Foolish mortal, your talk of ‘good’ and ‘evil’ is a mere human illusion”, please explain why I should care about philosophical judgements about human illusions more than about a pile of corpses.
Uh, I propose that we are responsible for the risks of the things we do about malaria, but not for malaria existing? It doesn’t sound so hard to me.
Well, “superior” has a lost, unspecified standard. I’ve never encountered anything else like the Qur’an. It claims that it is not the first “message”, and I can see traces elsewhere. However, the best alternative mentioned above is the “blank piece of paper.” If you can receive the message in a blank piece of paper, you would receive the message in all the rest.
I could justify this statement from the Qur’an itself.
Setting aside issues with “believe,” there is no difference. You could say that the Qur’an is a mirror which shows me, if I pay attention, what I know, or think I know.
Yes, there is a danger. However, if the basic message is accepted, if I stick with the blank piece of paper, and don’t believe anything that is not on it, I won’t actually create persistent error.
“Okay” is a human judgment. Any story that makes it “okay” is a human story, invented, because “okay” does not exist in Reality, just as “not okay” does not exist.
So you aren’t convinced by this or that story. That only tells us something about you, not about Reality, and “you” don’t exist, in Reality. “You” are a concept, an illusion, not a reality. As am I.
You are looking for explanations of an illusion. It can be done, I’ll claim. That is, by the way, a reductionist claim. Right?
I will also claim that an experience, a state of being, is possible that doesn’t make “evil” okay, “evil” being shorthand for the “detestable,” but it leads to something else, an acceptance of Reality that also gives us maximum power to change, to create transformation. Call it clear thinking if you like, that leads to maximized probability for effective action, rooted in fundamental values.
What’s “fundamental”? Well it’s probably written in our DNA. It isn’t an absolute, it’s a quality of life as it evolved, so this is reductionist. Or there is something beyond Theostoa, there is SuperTheostoa, and I can’t tell the difference. Not yet, anyway, and it may not be possible.
Thanks for replying. Unfortunately I understand exactly nothing of what you wrote.
Certainly “okay” is not fundamental. And certainly any judgement and subsequent action of something being okay or not is going to come from an okayness-judging being (that would be humans), which may be flawed. (And whether “okay” comes from humans or not is confusing, but not germane to my point.)
But I’d be… surprised… if “okay” didn’t refer to a thing that exists. Marlene is happily married and raises her long-awaited child. Manda died at seven in a freak accident. Those situations evoke strong emotions in me. I desire to create more situations like the former and fewer like the latter. I desire to ally with those who share such desires, and oppose those who don’t. Is this mistaken?
If you cut me, do I not bleed? Maybe the knife is a concept and the blood is an illusion, but I still want to know how the concept and illusion work.
Well yeah, if you’re telling me “Don’t rage against malaria”, you’ve got some splainin away to do.
I don’t understand the words and can’t parse the sentence. Does “detestable” mean the usual stuff—people starving to death or being burned alive or dropping their ice cream on the sidewalk and so on? If not, can you give some examples?
What do you mean by “acceptance”? Is it something like “Yes, I am lost in the wilderness—no whining about how terrifying that is, no denial about how likely I am to die, it’s time to focus on survival alone.”?
If so, that’s a beneficial attitude. But there’s no trust or security here—you know on a gut level that bad things happen, and want them to stop happening. And you don’t like the universe that lets such things happen. So unless you’re arguing for “Reality is evil, burn it” that’s either not what you mean or I’m missing a step.
I mistrust all concepts, in theory.
In fact, of course, I rely on concepts in daily life. In practice, I trust some. But they are all suspect, because, compared to the pure possibility of emptiness, they limit us. We trade that loss for utility.
Concepts are great! But the map is not the territory. If I want to know the territory, I have to experience the territory, any map will distract me. If I have chosen to travel from A to B, then a map can be very useful.
Ideally, I have the map, I can plot a course from A to B, but if I pass by C, of greater interest than B, I’ll still see C, even if it’s not on the map of All Places of Interest.
It’s more fundamental than that. I mistrust any interpretation. Abstracted ideologies are merely further from what I do trust, Reality. Sensory data is an aspect of reality. What that data can be made to mean is interpretation.
I wear a Muslim hat.
I’m not a theologian, though I do think about what might be called theology. Islam, as I define it—which happens to resemble the sources—is not theology, though it has theological implications.
In many ways my approach is Buddhist, if one wants an “ism” to try to contain it.
Most of us are so distracted by words.
when I wrote that Nature does not have “laws,” I did not mean what I did not write. I did not write that Nature was arbitrary, for example. What we call “laws,” however, are interpretations, heuristics, models. Nature has no problems to solve, needs no predictions. We have problems, and an AI will have problems.
It is obvious that Nature is commonly predictable. However, “commonly” is not enough. Can Nature disobey, for example, her own “laws”? It looks like she can, because what we have come to is an understanding of probability. If a situation can resolve as A or B, with some probability for each, we can develop laws that predict probability, but that does not predict any particular behavior in an individual instance. We have developed a probability. Nature doesn’t handle itself that way.
However, you can believe that Nature does follow laws if you like. And you can attempt to determine those laws. And that is highly useful, even necessary. However, if you believe what you have created, as if Nature were bound by the :”laws” you have inferred—and, hopefully, tested—you will become less able to see the exceptions. If by any chance, you notice one (the cards are stacked against it), you will dismiss it as some error.
When I read Yudkowsky, I interpret him as I interpret the Qur’an. That is, I assume that he’s right. It’s just a temporary assumption that facilitates understanding. So I have interpreted “reductionism” in a way that makes it—to me—right. It’s consistent with what I’ve read, so far. However, applying this, Yudkowsky is not always fully reductionist. Essentially, he’s human. So far, anyway. Seems to me that he acknowledges this.
I could write more, but I’m in awe.
Building on what TimS said, I would make a lot fewer assumptions if you explained things as you would to a toddler rather than express complex ideas in five highly ambiguous words and then complain I didn’t interpret each word exactly the way you meant to.
You still haven’t answered the question of why nature looks a whole lot like it has laws. Even if true, how can you possibly know that the model we have tested ten thousand times and confirmed each time is a surface model and not the truth?
Disagree. First, a probabilistic law is still a law; take nondeterministic Turing machines for example. Second, with the exception of some interpretations of QM, probabilistic models claim to be approximations of the true (or still approximate but a level deeper) laws when the human trying to use it lacks information or time to compute. Sometimes we find nature disobeying situation A’s law in situation B, but there always turns out to be a law that governs A, B, and C.
Clearly we’re not using “believe” the same way.
I call bullshit. Physicists catch exceptions to current theories all the time, and then work hard to find where it came from, and either devise new theories or fix the loose cable in their setup. Where’s the list of exceptions discovered by mysterians?
You should probably interpret it as “what most reductionists advocate” and use “the version of reductionism I think is right” for the other thing, if you hope to talk to people who call themselves reductionists without making them shout “What the actual fuck?”.
In the abstract, there’s nothing incoherent about using others’ technical vocabulary with different meanings. But:
1) You are misleading yourself if you think you are communicating effectively with them.
2) Your statements about their positions will make no sense to them.
3) It comes off as quite arrogant—essentially you are asserting you know better how a concept works without even attempting to justify the assertion (or even noticing that such an assertion is necessary)
If Eliezer says he is a reductionist1 and you say he is not a reductionist2, you haven’t done anything particularly clever or praiseworthy.
In the local parlance, “supernatural” is used to describe theories that have mental thingies in them whose behavior can’t be explained in terms of a bunch of interacting non-mental thingies. Pretty sure the definition originates with Richard Carrier.
I have no idea what limits there are on what “interacting non-mental thingies” can do. As an example, I don’t know what an “angel” is, much less how one works. I accept—as a Muslim—that the mention of angels in the Qur’an means something, it isn’t just stupid, but I don’t know what it is, but I somewhat assume that it refers to psychic forces, i.e., patterns in the mind, or patterns of patterns, etc.
(Actually, the first mention makes sense even though I don’t know what the angels are. That passage is really about us and what we do, and it’s a story that leads into the story of Satan, which I know is a psychic force, the hatred of the human—that is, pure intelligence that is full of disdain for this wet mess, this bag of shit. Okay, recognize.)
I read Carrier. Interesting.
Reality, for me, is either Theostoa (without the ether construct) or SuperTheostoa, and I can’t distinguish them, and I can’t imagine how to distinguish them. Any mental thingie that might be ascribed to SuperTheostoa might be a not-understood, non-mental characteristic of Theostoa.
But both Theostoa and SuperTheostoa are covered by the word Reality. Aside from reality, there is nothing. When we “worship” other than Reality, we are led astray, leading me to the credo of Islam. Laa ilaaha illa ’llah, there is no object-worthy-of-worship (ilah, god) except The Object (al-ilah, the god, shortened to Allah).
All the lesser “supernaturals” seem like fantasy to me. There may be realities—defined as actual experience—behind them, but … there are other possible explanations as well. I distinguish “experience” from what we take it to mean.
Setting up Reality as God, then, as a mode of thinking, leads to study, testing, falsification, rejection of dogma, clarity (in many senses), etc. It leads to trust in Something behind life, though for some it could lead to fear, even terror. It depends on what is already in the heart. “Heart,” again, can be understood as a pile of mental thingies (high-level patterns of patterns) that are made up of interacting non-mental thingies (patterns), arising from the machine (the brain) and the programming (memories and interactions of memories). Or it is a “mental thingie” with its own existence, i.e., supernatural, but I don’t see evidence for that.
A piece of meat is trying to figure out if there is anything other than itself. Perhaps I’m actually agnostic, full circle, except that I’m also Muslim, by the definitions.
This is overthought, but maybe it’s useful to someone.
If God only tells you to do what you know is right, that’s fine. God’s authority doesn’t add anything to the obligation though. It would be just as right without a God as there is with it.
I have problems with the idea that God is the source of our understanding of right and wrong though. If you accept that idea then contradictory preferences are evidence against the existence of God, and it’s pretty clear to me that preferences contradict all the time. Plus, I don’t think you’re justified in ignoring the Abraham data point, it seems like a significant and revealing event.
Agreed. However, do you ever need to be reminded of something?
A bit of a fish bicycle, eh? Or, a tautology? At best, the idea is not a truth, it is a way of looking at life. It either works or it doesn’t. It’s empowering or not. That’s all. If used to make a personal sense of right and wrong into an absolute, it’s been corrupted. Contradiction of preferences is decent evidence that the personal sense isn’t absolute, but that doesn’t bear on the existence of God. God made us different, that we might recognize each other. That, again, is Qur’an.
Most arguments for and against the existence of God are rather equally silly. I used to lecture university students on Islam, and once an atheist proudly asserted his position, “I don’t believe in God.” I asked him, “What God don’t you believe in?” I think he was already a bit confused, I forget his answer, if there was one. I then said, “The God that you don’t believe in, I don’t believe in either.” He was speechless. He’d expected an argument. Of course, it was an argument, just one he’d never heard before. I wasn’t being silly, and I was telling him what was true for me.
(I was more combative in those days. Now, I’m a little ashamed to tell that story. Did I actually communicate something to him—or discover something with him --, or did I merely humiliate him? The fact that I don’t know indicates something was missing.)
I didn’t “ignore the Abraham data point.” After all, I brought it up. To cover the Aqedah, though, could take more than I’m prepared to address today. I wrote, “my condolences,” because that was truly a trial. Can you imagine?
I have seven children. Abraham didn’t have the option to check himself into a psychiatric unit. I would. Still, somehow it worked out anyway.
And, should I mention that it is just a story? Again, a Muslim view, from the Qur’an: God tells stories.
There are more details in the Qur’anic story, but it’s not really necessary here so I’ll leave it.
I wasn’t talking about contradictory preferences between different people, but within one individual person.
I want to be famous but also want to not talk to people. I want to be strong and a hard worker and smart and also want to sit on the couch all day watching TV. I want to be happy but I also enjoy moments of extreme sadness. My preferences don’t make sense at all, they’re not coherent and they change over time and they’re shaped significantly by my genetics and my childhood environment, so it’s extremely more probable that they’re the product of a random process like evolution than that they’re the product of a God. If a God is responsible for my preferences, he is insane and incompetent.
Your ability to confuse one naive college atheist isn’t very strong evidence for anything. The atheist should have replied that he didn’t believe in any gods. You weren’t making an argument, just confusing him. Or if you were making an argument, then I’ve missed it, and I need the premises more clearly stated.
I think you probably confused him, or he was bad at thinking on his feet and responding to new ideas, but that afterwards he thought about it and figured out what his reply should have been. I would expect that “I don’t believe in any gods” is a fairly obvious reply to most people. He was probably annoyed with himself, and abit upset at you for confusing him, and he might have been a little embarrassed too.
That’s fine, it’s a big issue. I felt like you were lampshading it, but if you’ve got a lengthy complicated explanation of it that you’d rather not go into I sympathize and agree. I’d rather not go into detail with it either.
Great. What is this thing called “responsible”?
There are at least three major possibilities here, once we get past a definition. Feel free to add other possibilities.
God is responsible.
You are responsible.
Nobody is responsible, these are just circumstances, meaningless.
The conclusion (insane and incompetent) does not follow from the premise, however. It requires unspecified assumptions. Which one of these shall we examine first?
I don’t mean responsible, I guess. That was poor phrasing.
If God intentionally chose my preferences and my preferences contradict in ways that don’t make sense then God is crazy or incompetent or doesn’t care about my preferences because my preferences wouldn’t contradict if they were designed for any sort of reason.
In most of these conversations, God is a fish bicycle, isn’t that obvious? There is a possible conversation about what “God chose,” but the theologies that make sense to me essentially zero out the God contribution, beyond creating some expectation that it all makes, in the end, some kind of sense, and that we can search for that. God is, I’ll just say, outside of time and so placing God’s choice in the past, again, makes no sense. What is “God,” anyway?
Since you don’t accept the idea of God, whatever reasoning you create about God is made up, fantasy about fantasy.
Was there any choice at all involved in the creation of your “contradictory preferences”? What are you talking about? What is “choice”?
Okay, the core: you assume that contradictory preferences mean that something is wrong. Otherwise you would not conclude from them that God is crazy or incompetent. I’ll just make up something not-wrong. You have differing preferences because they give you different points of view, and when you can see from more than one point of view, you get depth perception, right? Is depth perception valuable?
My own answer, by the way, about the three possibilities is All of the Above. Those are simply three stories we can tell about responsibility. Each one produces, if held in mind, consequences. Each has a value, but generally the most empowering is the second: you are responsible for your identity, which includes what you describe as your preferences.
Isn’t that obvious? Okay, maybe it’s not. We don’t ordinarily think of ourselves as something that we created, we tend to “blame” it on our parents, society, or circumstances. But our identity was formed out of how we reacted to those factors. Did we chose these reactions or were they just automatic and predetermined? I’ll leave the question there for now.
It was not asserted as such (remember, I wrote that I was “a little ashamed”). Consider it dicta, but it does contain an argument about atheism, one which I’d expect would be well-known, here. Perhaps someone will point me to consideration of it.
In the original conversation, it was just “God.” But the problem is the same. What is this thing that is being disbelieved? The words “God” and”gods” have very different meanings for different people, even among people who supposedly are part of the same “sect.” What is it, precisely, that is being accepted or rejected? Or is the concept being accepted or rejected at all, is this just another form of “I’m right” and “You and people like you are wrong,” which, like any such expression of identity, bears no relation to any reality other than personal?
What I confronted with that student—this was about 18 years ago—was his assumption that he knew what I believed. If I “believe in God,” I must think this and that and the other thing.
Do I “believe in God”? That would be a fair question, eh? It wasn’t asked. Nor have I been asked it here. Nor have I been asked to define my terms, -- what is “God,” after all? -- and what I’ve indicated about it has not been heard (by anyone who responded). Hint: it’s related to that capitalization issue. You’ve seen enough to be able to say what I believe, if you’ve been paying adequate attention—or you will if you pay it now.
Chaosmosis, is there anything that you do “believe”? We need, of course, a definition of “believe.”
People can argue with each other for years, getting nowhere, because the terms being used are never specified so that fundamental disagreement—if it exists, sometimes it does not, and I have some suspicion that it never exists outside of psychopathology—can be identified.
It’s a bad argument against atheism. Atheists don’t just disbelieve in any particular God, they disbelieve in all of them. Of course, if you redefine God to mean “potato”, then atheists will believe in God. But that’s a bad use of language, and the default assumption is to use the word in its normal context.
Any beings which have supernatural powers or knowledge aren’t believed in by atheists. This would include everything that is normally considered a god, and a few extra things too.
No, you confused him. That doesn’t mean he understood this point.
What God do you believe in? Your point only makes sense if your understanding of God differs from the conventional one(s) in some important respect, which it probably doesn’t.
Are you basically a deist?
Definition of believe: “to accept as true or real”. I don’t believe with certainty in anything. (Technically, my intuitions are certain about certain things. Other parts of my brain disagree with their confidence though.) I slightly believe in everything, in that anything is possible because I’m fallible. But for everyday purposes, I believe that I am a human, that the sky looks blue sometimes, that rain is wet, and about ten million billion other things.
Sure.
I pointed to the Mu’tazila in another post to connect my position with an old tradition, one which is frequently thought to be heretical. The real story is that the Rationalists were very successful, early on, which might say something about the compatibility with the “proof-texts” of Islam, i.e, the Qur’an and the stories of the Prophet, but they asserted their power to attempt to crush contrary opinion. No surprise, they then lost power, and were in turn crushed.
To be fair, it was not the rationalist theologians who did this, it was their powerful supporters, who made the reserved and rational interpretations into a state-enforced dogma. Perhaps we could say that they did not adequately restrain their supporters.
Many “Muslims” would consider my comments heretical, I’ve run into this. I was considered to be too accommodating to “non-Muslims,” who, they believed, were doomed to Hell if they did not “accept Islam.” This got to the point that when I recited and translated a section of the Qur’an to a group of visiting Christian seminary students, the imam of the mosque was waving frantically at me to try to get me to stop. His religious affiliation trumped any concept that our responsibility might be to convey what was actually in the Qur’an. He was mostly ignorant of it. Small mosque, in a small town, a big fish in a small pond.
Great. Could we say that you believe in your experience? I would put it a little differently. You trust your experience. But for what?
In any case, can we distinguish between experience and what is concluded or expected from it?
You persist in this, Chaosmosis, in assuming “against.” What I presented was not an argument “against” atheism, per se, it was a question as to the nature of atheism. If “atheism” is disbelief in “God,” then there must be some definition of “God,” or it’s totally meaningless.
I don’t define God to be a thing. I equate God with Reality. What is that? I do not assume that I understand God. I did not invent this understanding, I found it. It’s actually pretty standard Islam. God has many names, and one of them is al-Haqq. The Truth or the Reality. Because this is a reference to a singleness, I capitalize it, this is not a reference to the ordinary individual realities, the body of facts, all of which are conditional and relative.
I don’t “believe” in this, I “trust” it, which is a better translation of the word in the Qur’an which is ordinarily translated as “believe.” That is, there is an operating hypothesis here, on which I lean. It has effects. But it happens to be one which does not constrain my reasoning, that encourages it. But it is arbitrary, it’s a choice.
I am responsible for it.
And you have your own choices to make.
In any case, “belief” is about an assumption of truth. “Trust” is only about a mind-state, in fact, or what I more routinely call a “condition of the heart.”
If I unpacked “disbelieves in God” to “has not encountered a concept of God they both believed (“did not disbelieve”, if you prefer) and did not consider a silly conception of God”, would atheism still be meaningless? Would that be a horrible misconception of atheism?
Are you sure there’s nothing bundled in with “God is Reality” beyond what you state? Let’s say I said “God is Reality. Reality is not sapient and has never given explicit instructions on anything.” Would you consider that consistent with your belief that God equals Reality?
I’m not trying for Socratic Method arguing here, I’m just not quite sure where you’re coming from.
But if God made people and our entire existence is up to his design, then a) He know’s something we don’t or b) The world is a cruel, cruel place.
And anyway, if he created humans, he planted our sense of morality too. I think the lesson here is: Don’t go chasing after other gods or you will get killed.
I don’t understand how any of those three possibilities refute what I said.
They don’t. However, what you said posed a created contradiction. There is more than that, to be sure. Rixie is saying one piece of this: implying that there will be no contradiction, because your “sense of morality” comes from God. I think that’s a bit naive, but not totally off. That is, I can think all kinds of crazy stuff. That’s not the same as knowledge.
The “other gods” implies a context where there is one, yours. What is that? Is this your identity or is it something deeper? If Rixie is right, “chasing” some other source of meaning could be fatal. What could that mean?
Chaosmosis, you objected elsewhere to my capitalizing Reality, I think. Reality is my substitute-name for God. So if I am chasing another “god” besides Reality, I’m literally going crazy.
Rixie’s point was operating within the hypothetical of “If God is real, and he actually said the thing about killing people”. Rixie defended that point with an appeal to authority. I pointed out that appealing to God’s authority only works if we believe what God said. That somewhat invalidated Rixie’s initial point. If Rixie now wants to argue that God would never order us to do something wrong, or something else like that, then Rixie needs to not only point out that the claim isn’t necessarily founded on an appeal to authority but also needs to add an additional argument which the claim could be legitimately founded on. I initially didn’t catch on that Rixie was abandoning the hypothetical because Rixie never took that second step.
I don’t understand your middle paragraph. What context is this in, where is the “other gods” quote from?
I can’t understand your last paragraph very well until I understand the relevancy of the middle one. I objected to capitalizing words like Reality because that sort of capitalization only occurs when you think of something like a proper noun, and thinking of things like proper nouns when the things aren’t proper nouns often adds a level of mysticism to the concept of those things which is detrimental to rationality.
Okay. First, I don’t really care who said what when, my goal is something like consensus or shared vision, and how we get there, and who stumbled and how, isn’t so important to me.
“other gods” was from Rixie:
This is proposed as a message to you. (You could choose to take it impersonally, as having nothing to do with you, but Rixie did use “you.” That might be accidental, but I like to start with what people actually wrote or said. Kind of the point I’ve been making here, in fact.)
So someone says to you, chaosmosis, “don’t go chasing after other gods, or you will get killed.” The principle of exegesis that I was taught was to assume that statements are correct. In fact, every statement can be true or false, but assuming that statements from others are true is the most powerful place to start. Assuming that the truth is literal and fixed would be irrational; this is just about communication process. When people start with skepticism and rejection, they can only come to understand statements when they are lucky enough to find serious proof. That’s actually rare, the approach is highly inefficient.
So what would “other gods” mean for you? I proposed a meaning. What do you think of it?
“Other god” implies “God.” What would your God be if the words meant something? Rather than anticipate an answer, I’ll stop.
As to capitalization, I use it with proper nouns. You assume that words are proper nouns or not. That depends on context. What you think of as “mysticism” could be a level of meaning that perhaps you don’t recognize, and you assume it is detrimental to rationality. Is that a fact? How would you know? What, indeed, is “mysticism”?
You contend that starting by believing what others say to be true is true is the fastest way to truth. I disagree. I think we should take others opinions as evidence, but that we should evaluate truth on a probabilistic level. There are no defaults, and we shouldn’t unfairly privilege any hypotheses. I think the truths you arrive at through that method aren’t true if they can’t be arrived at through the other method. People say many false and nonfalsifiable things. People assert things that they have no way of knowing or that make no sense at all. There is no reason I should believe people in these cases.
You conflate different instances of claims by people, essentially, viewing them all as equal. I make distinctions, and say that people’s opinions are good approximators of the truth in some cases but bad in other cases. This seems faster because it ensures that I don’t get stuck whenever I hear someone make a nonfalsifiable claim. There is an invisible and untouchable dragon behind you who will eat you and send you to hell if you believe nonfalsifiable claims. If you truly followed the system where you believe everything anyone tells you until you get contrary evidence, you would now have a terrible paradox on your hands.
How do you make the jump from this communications based model of evidence to a model which incorporates evidence? It seems like there’s a huge disconnect there, if the default mode is acceptance of others ideas then there would never be any reason to make the jump towards evidence.
I don’t think I have any god, so I don’t know what “other gods” might mean for me. I’ll speak metaphorically then. I would say that to the extent that I have a god, it’s a nonomniscient and nonomnipotent god that I find sort of pathetic most of the time, and his name is chaosmosis. Chasing other gods would be impossible for me because everywhere I go there I am. However, I can change as an individual, and I can pursue “other gods” by changing myself.
Thinking like this is relaxing and entertaining but not useful. I don’t mistake this for truth. It might be true, but the process that brought me there was a lazy and invalid one, and in other cases it would fail. It would be right for the wrong reasons.
I think that proper nouns should only be used where they are used traditionally.
Mysticism is an emotion of awe and humility and grandeur. Emotions are not evidence. I’m human, so the temptation is for me to treat emotions as evidence. This is detrimental to rationality. Therefore, I try to avoid my encounters with seductive emotions like mysticism, or to accept those encounters but also to make sure that I’m justifying my decisions on a logical basis and not an emotional one.
Mysticism is meaningful, but in a subjective and emotional sense. In a logical sense, it fights against meaning and truth.
Many issues of weight—at least to me—are raised here, I could spend weeks writing in response, and would lose everyone. What’s on-topic here? The rest can be addressed with new posts.
The original post is “Uncritical supercriticality.” The emphasized text from Deuteronomy prescribes a violent response to unfamiliar, alien thought, proposals of “other gods.” Yudkowsky is suggesting that this entire class of responses is inimical to rationality. He brings the problem down into social phenomena that stifle communication, such as reluctance to criticize evidence for the locally popular view.
I’m extending this a bit. I’m claiming that we cannot have a real dialog on an issue where there is an appearance of disagreement, at the outset, unless we first understand the other side. One of the first distinctions transmitted in the Landmark Forum is “Already Always Listening.” That’s the set of priors that come up based on immediate, often unconscious, associations. I see someone and immediately judge them as interesting, likely to be boring, beautiful, ugly, nice, unpleasant. I hear a few words and have an opinion, instantly, about right, wrong, smart, ignorant. The training is to recognize it, not to make it wrong. AAL is human, and necessary for survival. If I see a flash of tiger-stripes in the foliage, there is no time to run a conscious Bayesian process on it, let’s hope that my habitual responses are sane. However, if we can’t distinguish these learned or instinctual responses from reality, what is actually present, we have become locked into an established world-view.
If we start with an immediate assumption of wrongness, and if we have the normal human habit of inventing arguments to support assumptions—we are really good at that—all we can see is the wrongness of the other person.
It seems to be assumed that I’m proposing “belief” in what others tell us. No. I’m proposing conscious assumption. In order to have a true dialog, I must start with understanding, not with rejection. Once I understand, then, I may be able to apply the tools of rationality to what is now my own thinking, and that is precisely where the scientific method, for example, comes in. We now, having seen, say, the “beauty” of an idea, look for possible alternates, and for ways to test them.
The core, on-topic issue here is the meaning of “other gods.” To my “natural” mind, the prescription of Deuteronomy seems horrific, alien, hostile, irrational, rigid, to be totally rejected. However, my training has become to seek to understand what is right about it. We could think of this as attempting to falsify my Already Always Listening immediate judgment. I’m suggesting that.
I’m suggesting that moving beyond the Deuteronomy position, instead of merely being contrary to it, we best first understand it. A sign of understanding it would be a recognition of “Yes, of course.” I.e., that the prescription makes sense, it was at least functional, in some way, within ordinary survival or tribal survival, and maybe even necessary.
I would never suggest “belief” as a starting place, that is far too fixed. I suggest “acceptance,” as one accepts a hypothesis and then considers the implications and likely consequences.
A Christian minister who was teaching a class on Islam at a local senior center once told me that his goal in teaching it was to convey it in such a way that Muslims would say, “Yes, that is what we believe.” We had a great time. He did not therefore reject his Christianity.
I will now claim that between a theism and atheism is only a narrow space.
I’ll claim that, for some, atheism is closer to truth than dogmatic religion. Much closer. A sane atheism rejects false gods. Does it reject Reality?
“I don’t think I have any god” demonstrates well that the usable concept of “god” has not been understood. No, we have gods, many. All of us do, I’ll claim. To explore this, we need to find usable meanings of the word.
Chaosmosis, above, has begun the inquiry, starting with an obvious possible god, his identity.
“Everywhere I go, there I am.” Great!
Is this true or false? The statement implies something fixed. To be investigated, is whether or not this ubiquity is rational. I’ll claim that it’s not, generally, it’s been inadequately specified.
Yudkowsky was a bit naive here, after all, this page is five years old. He ascribed the passage, Deuteronomy 13.7-11 to “God.” Why would we say that “God said that”?
Well, a quite incautious, naive, religious belief. It is a Christian trope that the Bible is the “:word of God.” But this was part of the Torah, and it’s a part where Moses is telling his people the Law. I’m not a theologian or an expert on scriptural exegesis, but, on the face, Moses, explicitly, in this story of what he said, says “I command you.”′
As a Muslim, I’ve no obligation to accept the literal buffeted text we call the Bible as, in itself, the Word of God, perfectly preserved. But suppose I accept that it is true. That would mean, only, that Moses said this. It would not mean that God said it. Again, following the story, Moses was obeying God, but doesn’t say,. “God said....”
This is a command of a tribal leader in tribal times, regarding the preservation of tribal identity, which is life-and-death under those conditions. It’s crazy to take this tribal command as a universal truth, applicable to all times and conditions. Sure, some do that. We already know that some people are crazy.
Yes, I could go further. But for now I’m merely suggesting that before drawing major conclusions from what is in any text, that we read the text itself, what it says about itself, and what we know about the context. What others say about the text exists on another level, which may have little or nothing to do with the text itself.
If he used a different passage in his example, you would have no objection?
Surely that would depend on the passage and how he uses it. However, wasn’t arguing with Yudkowsky here, just pointing out that the little late discussion here was spinning off on that particular piece of unexamined exposition. I reread the piece, and I do come to something that may be interesting.
Yudkowsky is ascribing an “ur-mistake” to that passage, but he generalizes it, into a rigid adherence to a dogma or tightly-defined mission or, most importantly, group identity. That qualifies as an ur-mistake to me, at least for our time. It disables us from seeing the world-as-it-is, and that is now precisely our mission, our task as humans.
It leads us into the “affective death spiral,” and in some of the examples that came up, it’s literally a death spiral.
If so many people were not so harmed by it, it would be funny, the similarity between the fanatics in the world of Islam and the fanatics in the world of, say, fundamentalist Christianity. They are, from my point of view, on the same side, the side of hatred. In religious language, the side of Satan, whose goal is precisely that we fight each other, in order to demonstrate what pieces of dirt we are. (That’s almost a literal translation from the Qur’an.)