I think we might still be talking past each other, but here goes:
The reason I posit and emphasize a distinction between subjective judgments and those that are otherwise—I have a weak reason for not using the term “objective” here—is to highlight a particular feature of moral claims that is lacking, and in thus being lacked, weakens them. That is, I take a claim to be subjective if to hold it myself I must come upon it by chance. I cannot be brought to it through reason alone. It is an opinion or intuition that I cannot trace logically in my own thought, so I cannot communicate it to you by guiding you down the same line. The reason I think that this distinction matters, is that without this logical structure, it not possible for someone to bring me to experience the same intuition through reasoned argument or demonstration. Without this feature, morality must be an island state. This is ruinous, because morality inevitably and necessarily touches upon interactions between people. If it cannot do this, it cannot do much.
Perhaps we should come to common agreement, are at least agreed-upon disagreement on this point before we try other things.
Other Things:
I suspect—this is an idea I have only recently invented have not entirely examined—that any idea that is irrational needs must be essentially incommunicable. How could it be otherwise? If you can lay out the logic behind a thought and give support to its predicates carefully and patiently, and of course your logic is valid and your predicates sound, how can I not, if I am open to reason, not accept what you say as true? That is, if you can demonstrate your ideas as the logical consequences of some set of known truths, I must, because that is what logical consequence is, accept your ideas as true.
I have not witnessed with done with moral notions. Hence my doubt about there existence as rational ideas. I do not doubt that people have moral ideas, but I doubt that they can be communicated to people who have not already come upon them by chance, and who then can only be partially sure that you are of common mind.
Perhaps I can draw a parallel with the distinction between Greek and Babylonian mathematics. The difference between demonstration by proof and attempted demonstration by repeated example. The first (except to mathematicians of the subtle variety), if done properly, seems to be able, in its nature, to be powered to accomplish the goal of communication in every case. Can this be said of the latter type? I think only in the case when the examples given are logically structured so as to be a form of the first type.
"I agree with your basic point that moral intuitions reflect psychological realities, and that attempts to derive moral truths without explicitly referring to those realities will inevitably turn out to implicitly embed them."
I have not wanted to make this claim. What I am claiming is that this claim does appear, thus far, to hold water. However, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, etc. etc. I am asking for someone to show me the light, as it were.
"First, I can have moral intuitions about non-humans... for example, I can believe that it's wrong to club cute widdle baby seals. Second, it's not obvious that non-humans can't have moral intuitions."
As for your first objection, have not you given precisely the sort of case I was talking about? The moral judgment stated is not about bears clubbing baby seals, it is about humans doing it! Clearly that does involve humans. Come up with a moral judgment about trees overusing carbon dioxide and you’ll have me pinned.
"If that is in fact your desire, then you haven't a care for it. Or, indeed, for much of anything else."
That is just silly, is it not? I must at least care for reason itself. The desire to be rational is a passion indeed. If I must be paradoxical at least that far, I will take it and move on. As for your love of pie, if it is really a consequence of your biology and history, then you CANNOT give it up. You cannot will yourself to unlove it, or it must thus not be the product of the aforesaid forces alone.
I am fairly sure that we aren’t talking past each other, I just disagree with you on some points. Just to try and clarify those points...
You seem to believe that a moral theory must, first and foremost, be compelling… if moral theory X does not convince others, then it can’t do much worth doing. I am not convinced of this. For example, working out my own moral theory in detail allows me to recognize situations that present moral choices, and identify the moral choices I endorse, more accurately… which lowers my chances of doing things that, if I understood better, I would reject. This seems worth doing, even if I’m the only person who ever subscribes to that theory.
You seem to believe that if moral theory X is not rationally compelling, then we cannot come to agree on the specific claims of X except by chance. I’m unconvinced of that. People come to agree on all kinds of things where there is a payoff to agreement, even where the choices themselves are arbitrary. Heck, people often agree on things that are demonstrably false.
Relatedly, you seem to believe that if X logically entails Y, then everyone in the world who endorses X necessarily endorses Y. I’d love to live in that world, but I see no evidence that I do. (That said, it’s possible that you are actually making a moral claim that having logically consistent beliefs is good, rather than a claim that people actually do have such beliefs. I’m inclined to agree with the former.)
I can have a moral intuition that bears clubbing baby seals is wrong, also. Now, I grant you that I, as a human, am less likely to have moral intuitions about things that don’t affect humans in any way… but my moral intuitions might nevertheless be expressible as a general principle which turns out to apply to non-humans as well.
You seem to believe that things I’m biologically predisposed to desire, I will necessarily desire. But lots of biological predispositions are influenced by local environment. My desire for pie may be stronger in some settings than others, and it may be brought lower than my desire for the absence of pie via a variety of mechanisms, and etc. Sure, maybe I can’t “will myself to unlove it,” but I have stronger tools available than unaided will, and we’re developing still-stronger tools every year.
I agree that the desire to be rational is a desire like any other. I intended “much of anything else” to denote an approximate absence of desire, not a complete one.
I think an important part of our disagreement, at least for me, is that you are interested in people generally and morality as it is now—at least your examples come from this set—while I am trying to restrict my inquiry to the most rational type of person, so that I can discover a morality that all rational people can be brought to through reason alone without need for error or chance. If such a morality does not exist among people generally, then I have no interest for the morality of people generally. To bring it up is a non sequitur in such a case.
I do not see that people coming to agree on things that are demonstrably false is a point against me. This fact is precisely why I am turned-off by the current state of ethical thought, as it seems infested with examples of this circumstance. I am not impressed by people who will agree to an intellectual point because it is convenient. I take truth first, at least that is the point of this inquiry.
I am asking a single question: Is there (or can we build) a morality that can be derived with logic from first principles that are obvious to everyone and require no Faith?
You’re right, I’m concerned with morality as it applies to people generally.
If you are exclusively concerned with sufficiently rational people, then we have indeed been talking past each other. Thanks for clarifying that.
As to your question: I submit that for that community, there are only two principles that matter:
Come to agreement with the rest of the community about how to best optimize your shared environment to satisfy your collective preferences.
Abide by that agreement as long as doing so is in the long-term best interests of everyone you care about.
...and the justification for those principles is fairly self-evident. Perhaps that isn’t a morality, but if it isn’t I’m not sure what use that community would have for a morality in the first place. So I say: either of course there is, or there’s no reason to care.
The specifics of that agreement will, of course, depend on the particular interests of the people involved, and will therefore change regularly. There’s no way to build that without actually knowing about the specific community at a specific point in time. But that’s just implementation. It’s like the difference between believing it’s right to not let someone die, and actually having the medical knowledge to save them.
That said, if this community is restricted to people who, as you implied earlier, care only for rationality, then the resulting agreement process is pretty simple. (If they invite people who also care for other things, it will get more complex.)
I am asking a single question: Is there (or can we build) a morality that can be derived with logic from first principles that are obvious to everyone and require no Faith?
I think it’s one of Yudkowsky’s better articles. (On a tangential note, I’m amused to find on re-reading it that I had almost the exact same reaction to The Golden Transcendence, though I had no conscious recollection of the connection when I got around to reading it myself.)
I think we might still be talking past each other, but here goes:
The reason I posit and emphasize a distinction between subjective judgments and those that are otherwise—I have a weak reason for not using the term “objective” here—is to highlight a particular feature of moral claims that is lacking, and in thus being lacked, weakens them. That is, I take a claim to be subjective if to hold it myself I must come upon it by chance. I cannot be brought to it through reason alone. It is an opinion or intuition that I cannot trace logically in my own thought, so I cannot communicate it to you by guiding you down the same line. The reason I think that this distinction matters, is that without this logical structure, it not possible for someone to bring me to experience the same intuition through reasoned argument or demonstration. Without this feature, morality must be an island state. This is ruinous, because morality inevitably and necessarily touches upon interactions between people. If it cannot do this, it cannot do much.
Perhaps we should come to common agreement, are at least agreed-upon disagreement on this point before we try other things.
Other Things:
I suspect—this is an idea I have only recently invented have not entirely examined—that any idea that is irrational needs must be essentially incommunicable. How could it be otherwise? If you can lay out the logic behind a thought and give support to its predicates carefully and patiently, and of course your logic is valid and your predicates sound, how can I not, if I am open to reason, not accept what you say as true? That is, if you can demonstrate your ideas as the logical consequences of some set of known truths, I must, because that is what logical consequence is, accept your ideas as true.
I have not witnessed with done with moral notions. Hence my doubt about there existence as rational ideas. I do not doubt that people have moral ideas, but I doubt that they can be communicated to people who have not already come upon them by chance, and who then can only be partially sure that you are of common mind.
Perhaps I can draw a parallel with the distinction between Greek and Babylonian mathematics. The difference between demonstration by proof and attempted demonstration by repeated example. The first (except to mathematicians of the subtle variety), if done properly, seems to be able, in its nature, to be powered to accomplish the goal of communication in every case. Can this be said of the latter type? I think only in the case when the examples given are logically structured so as to be a form of the first type.
I have not wanted to make this claim. What I am claiming is that this claim does appear, thus far, to hold water. However, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, etc. etc. I am asking for someone to show me the light, as it were.
As for your first objection, have not you given precisely the sort of case I was talking about? The moral judgment stated is not about bears clubbing baby seals, it is about humans doing it! Clearly that does involve humans. Come up with a moral judgment about trees overusing carbon dioxide and you’ll have me pinned.
That is just silly, is it not? I must at least care for reason itself. The desire to be rational is a passion indeed. If I must be paradoxical at least that far, I will take it and move on. As for your love of pie, if it is really a consequence of your biology and history, then you CANNOT give it up. You cannot will yourself to unlove it, or it must thus not be the product of the aforesaid forces alone.
I am fairly sure that we aren’t talking past each other, I just disagree with you on some points. Just to try and clarify those points...
You seem to believe that a moral theory must, first and foremost, be compelling… if moral theory X does not convince others, then it can’t do much worth doing. I am not convinced of this. For example, working out my own moral theory in detail allows me to recognize situations that present moral choices, and identify the moral choices I endorse, more accurately… which lowers my chances of doing things that, if I understood better, I would reject. This seems worth doing, even if I’m the only person who ever subscribes to that theory.
You seem to believe that if moral theory X is not rationally compelling, then we cannot come to agree on the specific claims of X except by chance. I’m unconvinced of that. People come to agree on all kinds of things where there is a payoff to agreement, even where the choices themselves are arbitrary. Heck, people often agree on things that are demonstrably false.
Relatedly, you seem to believe that if X logically entails Y, then everyone in the world who endorses X necessarily endorses Y. I’d love to live in that world, but I see no evidence that I do. (That said, it’s possible that you are actually making a moral claim that having logically consistent beliefs is good, rather than a claim that people actually do have such beliefs. I’m inclined to agree with the former.)
I can have a moral intuition that bears clubbing baby seals is wrong, also. Now, I grant you that I, as a human, am less likely to have moral intuitions about things that don’t affect humans in any way… but my moral intuitions might nevertheless be expressible as a general principle which turns out to apply to non-humans as well.
You seem to believe that things I’m biologically predisposed to desire, I will necessarily desire. But lots of biological predispositions are influenced by local environment. My desire for pie may be stronger in some settings than others, and it may be brought lower than my desire for the absence of pie via a variety of mechanisms, and etc. Sure, maybe I can’t “will myself to unlove it,” but I have stronger tools available than unaided will, and we’re developing still-stronger tools every year.
I agree that the desire to be rational is a desire like any other. I intended “much of anything else” to denote an approximate absence of desire, not a complete one.
I think an important part of our disagreement, at least for me, is that you are interested in people generally and morality as it is now—at least your examples come from this set—while I am trying to restrict my inquiry to the most rational type of person, so that I can discover a morality that all rational people can be brought to through reason alone without need for error or chance. If such a morality does not exist among people generally, then I have no interest for the morality of people generally. To bring it up is a non sequitur in such a case.
I do not see that people coming to agree on things that are demonstrably false is a point against me. This fact is precisely why I am turned-off by the current state of ethical thought, as it seems infested with examples of this circumstance. I am not impressed by people who will agree to an intellectual point because it is convenient. I take truth first, at least that is the point of this inquiry.
I am asking a single question: Is there (or can we build) a morality that can be derived with logic from first principles that are obvious to everyone and require no Faith?
You’re right, I’m concerned with morality as it applies to people generally.
If you are exclusively concerned with sufficiently rational people, then we have indeed been talking past each other. Thanks for clarifying that.
As to your question: I submit that for that community, there are only two principles that matter:
Come to agreement with the rest of the community about how to best optimize your shared environment to satisfy your collective preferences.
Abide by that agreement as long as doing so is in the long-term best interests of everyone you care about.
...and the justification for those principles is fairly self-evident. Perhaps that isn’t a morality, but if it isn’t I’m not sure what use that community would have for a morality in the first place. So I say: either of course there is, or there’s no reason to care.
The specifics of that agreement will, of course, depend on the particular interests of the people involved, and will therefore change regularly. There’s no way to build that without actually knowing about the specific community at a specific point in time. But that’s just implementation. It’s like the difference between believing it’s right to not let someone die, and actually having the medical knowledge to save them.
That said, if this community is restricted to people who, as you implied earlier, care only for rationality, then the resulting agreement process is pretty simple. (If they invite people who also care for other things, it will get more complex.)
Very well put.
Perhaps you’ve already encountered this, but your question calls to mind the following piece by Yudkowsky: No Universally Compelling Arguments, which is near the start of his broader metaethics sequence.
I think it’s one of Yudkowsky’s better articles.
(On a tangential note, I’m amused to find on re-reading it that I had almost the exact same reaction to The Golden Transcendence, though I had no conscious recollection of the connection when I got around to reading it myself.)