I’m an older sister. My sister wasn’t a brat, and I wasn’t a bully. I did take a little advantage on housework, and I think she’s still angry about it. However, I never tried to break down her self-respect.
How flexible is the “bratty little sister” model for coverinig situations where the sister is right?
However, I never tried to break down her self-respect.
I’ve never seen anyone advocate breaking down a woman’s self-respect, so I’m not clear on the relevance here either.
How flexible is the “bratty little sister” model for coverinig situations where the sister is right?
Brothers and sisters can disagree, can they not? Sister isn’t required to agree with brother, nor vice versa.
Think of it this way: right now, you appear to think that the problem is that if the guy pushes one way, then she has to go along with that.
Now, reverse the model: pretend that if she pushes one way, the guy has to go along with that.
That’s the mental model most men (AFC’s or Average Frustrated Chumps in PUA lingo) have about relationships.
By default, “nice guys” think they have to agree with everything a woman says. This is especially the case if the woman is attractive to them, and they really want her to like him.
You might not think this is most men’s model… but that’s because most men don’t approach the women they’re attracted to in the first place! And the ones that do, tend to get written off as unattractive or not relationship material, precisely because they’re too eager to please, doing too much, “well, what do you want to do?”, etc.
PUA appears biased the other way, because it’s trying to train AFCs that they need to actually have an opinion of their own, and be able to maintain that opinion even when a woman they’re positively infatuated with disagrees.
Unfortunately, availability bias on the part of women means that you are going to think men are already too far biased this way, because the majority of the ones who come and hit on you in the first place are towards the further end of the wimpy-nice-confident-aggressive-asshole spectrum. PUA training is aimed at moving people at the low end of that scale towards the middle, not the high end off the scale.
In my view, there isn’t enough explicitly stated material on how to detect when the sister is in the right in PUA materials; some of my own thought processes on this subject is shown here. I do think that many experienced PUAs do figure out better intuition about when the sister is being genuinely bratty, whether she is deliberately testing him or simply displaying her natural personality, or if she has some other motive, such as displaying serious objections or resistance to how the interaction is proceeding that require him to adjust his approach or back off entirely.
This process of adjusting one’s behavior based on the woman’s responses is called “calibration,” and it is hard to teach through explicit description (which is why experienced PUAs often roll their eyes at how beginners go through phases of weird or otherwise undesirable behavior until they learn the correct calibration and how to interpret the teachings of the community). Some experienced PUAs will apologize to women if they judge that they have badly “miscalibrated.”
It’s nice to see that PUAs are working on this angle. It’s cheering to think that paying attention to what you’re doing leads to more benevolent behavior.
And it’s very interesting from an FAI angle that calibration isn’t programmatic. I’ve been trying to work up convincing arguments that an FAI will have to do ongoing attention and updating in order to treat people well.
Some experienced PUAs will apologize to women if they judge that they have badly “miscalibrated.”
For anyone who prefers equal relationships (and I’ve seen some happy marriages which look pretty equal), even the experienced PUAs have awful defaults (it takes experience to learn to apologize at all, only some PUAs do it, and it’s only for bad mistakes), and it’s scary to think about the men who haven’t done that much work.
I think one piece of it is a cultural problem (maybe hard-wired, but I hope not) of figuring out how to apologize without it having the effect of grovelling for either person.
For anyone who prefers equal relationships (and I’ve seen some happy marriages which look pretty equal), even the experienced PUAs have awful defaults (it takes experience to learn to apologize at all, only some PUAs do it, and it’s only for bad mistakes), and it’s scary to think about the men who haven’t done that much work.
Yes, it takes newbie PUAs time to learn to recognize when they have made social errors, and to learn which errors are bad enough that they should apologize for. But in this regard, PUAs are just the same as everyone else. They are just learning these social lessons later in life, while most people learned them through their normal socialization in childhood and adolescence.
Trust me, PUAs don’t want to be going through trial-and-error to learn during adulthood what everyone else learned during puberty, but it’s really not their fault that they have to do this. The typical reasons that they have ended up in this situation is because they got locked out of a normal social development by exclusion, bullying, or abuse by peers or parents during their formative development.
Sociologist Brian Gilmartin did a study of men with debilitating shyness in heterosexual interactions in the late 80′s, and found a high rate of peer and/or family victimization experienced by these men during their formative years. Furthermore, he found a high rate of gender-atypical traits in his sample. “Love-shy” men were disproportionately introverted, prone to anxiety, and non-neurotypical. Gilmartin argues that males with those traits may be capable of a positive social development in the right environment, but that American culture is unfriendly to males with these traits:
Let me illustrate with some insights derived from findings reported
in various parts of this book. In American society there is an irrational
albeit near ubiquitous learned tendency on the part of most young adults
to associate the very thought of “boy” with the thought of a natural,
inborn enthusiasm for baseball, football, and basketball. Thus my find-
ings clearly show that those boys who best fit this stereotyped expec-
tation quickly come to possess the strongest interpersonal skills and the
lowest incidence of love-shyness. On the other hand, my data also show
that those boys who fit this stereotype least well include among their
members the highest incidence of intractable love-shyness combined
with a history of inadequate socialization for interpersonal skills and
social self-confidence. Girls without a natural enthusiasm for such rough,
contact sports do not suffer negative outcomes as a result. A liking for
such sports is considered (at best) optional for them, and it is not nor-
matively prescribed as it is for boys.
It is through the cumulative tenor of the responses of others, par-
ticularly parents and peers, that a child decides whether it is intelligent or
stupid, attractive or homely, lovable or unlovable, competent or incom-
petent, worthy of social companionship or worthless in this regard. If
a male child is born in America with an innate temperament that places
him high up in the melancholic quadrant (quadrant #1) of the Eysenck
Cross, and if this native temperament with its concomitants of very low
pain and anxiety thresholds, nervousness and inhibition/introversion,
cause him to constantly avoid the rough and tumble play of the all-male
peer group (and not physically defend himself against its assaults), that
child is highly likely to develop a very low social self-image along with
a case of intractable shyness.
Such a development is NEVER a necessary consequence of such an
inborn temperament. There is nothing intrinsically “unhealthy” about
being an emotional introvert per se. But insofar as within the American
social context such a temperament is likely to serve as a stimulus for
consistent and continual bullying, ignoring and rejection on the part of
the peer group and expressed disappointment and disapproval on the
part of parents (especially fathers), shyness together with a low self-
esteem, a “people-phobia”, and poor interpersonal skills are all highly
likely to develop.
p. 82:
And so it is with the little boy who is high on inborn introversion/ inhibition and high on inborn emotionality. If left alone to the ravages of the conventional all-boy peer group he will almost certainly become love-shy and lonely without the interpersonal skills that are indispensable for effective, happy survival. If, on the other hand, that little boy is introduced to an alternative peer group composed of little boys and girls who are reasonably similar to himself in native temperament and if that little boy is introduced to games and sports that will not frighten him or inspire any sort of bullying, then the chances are exceedingly good that he will be headed for psychoemotional and social adjustment. In fact, as Alexander Thomas has shown, such a little boy’s chances for
success will actually be about as good as those of children who had been
born with more advantaged inborn temperaments.
The social problems described by Gilmartin’s work are on the more extreme end of what many PUAs describe. Yet what it shows is that many PUAs are essentially abuse survivors of various sorts who are currently trying to learn the social skills that they could have learned in adolescence if they hadn’t spent their adolescence being abused, excluded, or isolated due to having non-stereotypically masculine traits or being non-neurotypical.
Does that mean that anything goes in their attempts to “catch up” socially? Of course not. These men should still exercise common sense, and people who are teaching them should encourage it. Yet since the social intuitions of these men are under-developed due their negative developmental experiences, it is inevitable that they will make mistakes. If they played completely safe, they might lower the amount of mistakes they made, but they would miss out on important developmental lessons.
This does make more sense out of PUA. Thank you for posting it.
For anyone who prefers equal relationships (and I’ve seen some happy marriages which look pretty equal), even the experienced PUAs have awful defaults (it takes experience to learn to apologize at all, only some PUAs do it, and it’s only for bad mistakes), and it’s scary to think about the men who haven’t done that much work.
Yes, it takes newbie PUAs time to learn to recognize when they have made social errors, and to learn which errors are bad enough that they should apologize for. But in this regard, PUAs are just the same as everyone else. They are just learning these social lessons later in life, while most people learned them through their normal socialization in childhood and adolescence.
Where you’re putting the emphasis on the end state, I’m seeing a description of men who are barely capable of apologizing at all. I gather PUA is especially for men who feel they ought to be apologizing all the time.
Part of what’s going on here is group loyalty issues. My defaults are the ill-effects on women of harassment and abuse, and yours are men who got pushed to the bottom of the hierarchy. From my point of view, you see women as just the material for you guys to learn on.
You mention that the quotes from the article are the extreme end of what PUAs at the extreme end of what PUAs have experienced. Would you care to give me some idea of the range?
One piece is something which I probably need to work on. It’s very tempting for me to see a creepy guy as really creepy all the way down, so that what seems like more attractive behavior is just a ploy.
I’m willing to bet that PUA generally can’t be framed as trauma recovery because you believe (perhaps rightly) that a man can’t do well socially while admitting to that sort of damage.
I’m wondering if “normal” people need to do this much damage for the sake of their own functioning. Cruelty seems to be strongly reinforcing for a significant proportion of people.
Gilmartin argues that males with those traits may be capable of a positive social development in the right environment, but that American culture is unfriendly to males with these traits:
I came at it from fat acceptance, but it was rather a shock to realize that my native culture is meaner than hell.
I gather PUA is especially for men who feel they ought to be apologizing all the time.
Yes, exactly. This is probably the bit that causes the most problems—women think PUA advocates that all the jerky guys who already bother them become even jerkier, when it’s actually about getting nice guys to stop being apologetic for even existing within the perceptual range of a female.
I’m willing to bet that PUA generally can’t be framed as trauma recovery because you believe (perhaps rightly) that a man can’t do well socially while admitting to that sort of damage.
Right—men are shamed for not being able to deal with it, in the same way that you were shamed for being angry.
That being said, PUA is framed as recovery, to a certain extent, but with a more positive spin—“it’s not about getting women, it’s about becoming better men” is a common saying among people who’ve spent a nontrivial amount of time interacting with their PUA peers, or who’re involved in doing training.
It’s very tempting for me to see a creepy guy as really creepy all the way down, so that what seems like more attractive behavior is just a ploy.
If you look at what PUA training products are for sale in the marketplace, and how they’re priced, you’ll notice that the difference between cheap training and expensive training is mostly about the difference between cheap tricks, and becoming a more confident, expressive, person. (On the in-between pricing levels, there’s training about style, logistics, approaches, etc.)
This isn’t accidental—it reflects the normal path of guys’ interest. The further along someone gets in their education, the more interested they are in changing who they are, rather than in just learning some magical pickup lines, or ways to dress and stand so as not to look creepy.
If you think that PUAs are creepy guys who just want to manipulate women and get laid, consider the fact that they’re willing to pay $200 just to learn to appreciate women better!
Heck, just read the first bullet point from that sales page:
How most guys are strangers to their own emotions, and therefore can’t relate to a woman’s emotions. Discover how to open up to your OWN emotions, and watch your connections with women deepen, immediately.
Does that sound like something that would even remotely appeal to the stereotype you have in mind of what a “PUA” is?
Sure, I’m cherrypicking an example—AMP are the only people I know of who position their marketing that clearly. Most of the sales literature for similar training is shrouded in more mystery, or in language that makes things sound a lot more like you’re going to become this awesome stud, until you look at the actual program synopsis or read reviews
But AMP is far from the only company training “inner”, “natural”, and “direct” game styles (all of which emphasize personal transformation, and open/honest communication). And some of those other companies are making millions. Annually.
Which means it’s not really the narrow niche you think it is. Availability bias and controversy creates distorted views.
I’m an older sister. My sister wasn’t a brat, and I wasn’t a bully. I did take a little advantage on housework, and I think she’s still angry about it. However, I never tried to break down her self-respect.
How flexible is the “bratty little sister” model for coverinig situations where the sister is right?
What does bullying have to do with it?
I’ve never seen anyone advocate breaking down a woman’s self-respect, so I’m not clear on the relevance here either.
Brothers and sisters can disagree, can they not? Sister isn’t required to agree with brother, nor vice versa.
Think of it this way: right now, you appear to think that the problem is that if the guy pushes one way, then she has to go along with that.
Now, reverse the model: pretend that if she pushes one way, the guy has to go along with that.
That’s the mental model most men (AFC’s or Average Frustrated Chumps in PUA lingo) have about relationships.
By default, “nice guys” think they have to agree with everything a woman says. This is especially the case if the woman is attractive to them, and they really want her to like him.
You might not think this is most men’s model… but that’s because most men don’t approach the women they’re attracted to in the first place! And the ones that do, tend to get written off as unattractive or not relationship material, precisely because they’re too eager to please, doing too much, “well, what do you want to do?”, etc.
PUA appears biased the other way, because it’s trying to train AFCs that they need to actually have an opinion of their own, and be able to maintain that opinion even when a woman they’re positively infatuated with disagrees.
Unfortunately, availability bias on the part of women means that you are going to think men are already too far biased this way, because the majority of the ones who come and hit on you in the first place are towards the further end of the wimpy-nice-confident-aggressive-asshole spectrum. PUA training is aimed at moving people at the low end of that scale towards the middle, not the high end off the scale.
In my view, there isn’t enough explicitly stated material on how to detect when the sister is in the right in PUA materials; some of my own thought processes on this subject is shown here. I do think that many experienced PUAs do figure out better intuition about when the sister is being genuinely bratty, whether she is deliberately testing him or simply displaying her natural personality, or if she has some other motive, such as displaying serious objections or resistance to how the interaction is proceeding that require him to adjust his approach or back off entirely.
This process of adjusting one’s behavior based on the woman’s responses is called “calibration,” and it is hard to teach through explicit description (which is why experienced PUAs often roll their eyes at how beginners go through phases of weird or otherwise undesirable behavior until they learn the correct calibration and how to interpret the teachings of the community). Some experienced PUAs will apologize to women if they judge that they have badly “miscalibrated.”
It’s nice to see that PUAs are working on this angle. It’s cheering to think that paying attention to what you’re doing leads to more benevolent behavior.
And it’s very interesting from an FAI angle that calibration isn’t programmatic. I’ve been trying to work up convincing arguments that an FAI will have to do ongoing attention and updating in order to treat people well.
For anyone who prefers equal relationships (and I’ve seen some happy marriages which look pretty equal), even the experienced PUAs have awful defaults (it takes experience to learn to apologize at all, only some PUAs do it, and it’s only for bad mistakes), and it’s scary to think about the men who haven’t done that much work.
I think one piece of it is a cultural problem (maybe hard-wired, but I hope not) of figuring out how to apologize without it having the effect of grovelling for either person.
Yes, it takes newbie PUAs time to learn to recognize when they have made social errors, and to learn which errors are bad enough that they should apologize for. But in this regard, PUAs are just the same as everyone else. They are just learning these social lessons later in life, while most people learned them through their normal socialization in childhood and adolescence.
Trust me, PUAs don’t want to be going through trial-and-error to learn during adulthood what everyone else learned during puberty, but it’s really not their fault that they have to do this. The typical reasons that they have ended up in this situation is because they got locked out of a normal social development by exclusion, bullying, or abuse by peers or parents during their formative development.
Sociologist Brian Gilmartin did a study of men with debilitating shyness in heterosexual interactions in the late 80′s, and found a high rate of peer and/or family victimization experienced by these men during their formative years. Furthermore, he found a high rate of gender-atypical traits in his sample. “Love-shy” men were disproportionately introverted, prone to anxiety, and non-neurotypical. Gilmartin argues that males with those traits may be capable of a positive social development in the right environment, but that American culture is unfriendly to males with these traits:
p. 46-47 of his book (available as PDF here ):
p. 82:
The social problems described by Gilmartin’s work are on the more extreme end of what many PUAs describe. Yet what it shows is that many PUAs are essentially abuse survivors of various sorts who are currently trying to learn the social skills that they could have learned in adolescence if they hadn’t spent their adolescence being abused, excluded, or isolated due to having non-stereotypically masculine traits or being non-neurotypical.
Does that mean that anything goes in their attempts to “catch up” socially? Of course not. These men should still exercise common sense, and people who are teaching them should encourage it. Yet since the social intuitions of these men are under-developed due their negative developmental experiences, it is inevitable that they will make mistakes. If they played completely safe, they might lower the amount of mistakes they made, but they would miss out on important developmental lessons.
This does make more sense out of PUA. Thank you for posting it.
Where you’re putting the emphasis on the end state, I’m seeing a description of men who are barely capable of apologizing at all. I gather PUA is especially for men who feel they ought to be apologizing all the time.
Part of what’s going on here is group loyalty issues. My defaults are the ill-effects on women of harassment and abuse, and yours are men who got pushed to the bottom of the hierarchy. From my point of view, you see women as just the material for you guys to learn on.
You mention that the quotes from the article are the extreme end of what PUAs at the extreme end of what PUAs have experienced. Would you care to give me some idea of the range?
One piece is something which I probably need to work on. It’s very tempting for me to see a creepy guy as really creepy all the way down, so that what seems like more attractive behavior is just a ploy.
I’m willing to bet that PUA generally can’t be framed as trauma recovery because you believe (perhaps rightly) that a man can’t do well socially while admitting to that sort of damage.
I’m wondering if “normal” people need to do this much damage for the sake of their own functioning. Cruelty seems to be strongly reinforcing for a significant proportion of people.
I came at it from fat acceptance, but it was rather a shock to realize that my native culture is meaner than hell.
Yes, exactly. This is probably the bit that causes the most problems—women think PUA advocates that all the jerky guys who already bother them become even jerkier, when it’s actually about getting nice guys to stop being apologetic for even existing within the perceptual range of a female.
Right—men are shamed for not being able to deal with it, in the same way that you were shamed for being angry.
That being said, PUA is framed as recovery, to a certain extent, but with a more positive spin—“it’s not about getting women, it’s about becoming better men” is a common saying among people who’ve spent a nontrivial amount of time interacting with their PUA peers, or who’re involved in doing training.
If you look at what PUA training products are for sale in the marketplace, and how they’re priced, you’ll notice that the difference between cheap training and expensive training is mostly about the difference between cheap tricks, and becoming a more confident, expressive, person. (On the in-between pricing levels, there’s training about style, logistics, approaches, etc.)
This isn’t accidental—it reflects the normal path of guys’ interest. The further along someone gets in their education, the more interested they are in changing who they are, rather than in just learning some magical pickup lines, or ways to dress and stand so as not to look creepy.
If you think that PUAs are creepy guys who just want to manipulate women and get laid, consider the fact that they’re willing to pay $200 just to learn to appreciate women better!
Heck, just read the first bullet point from that sales page:
Does that sound like something that would even remotely appeal to the stereotype you have in mind of what a “PUA” is?
Sure, I’m cherrypicking an example—AMP are the only people I know of who position their marketing that clearly. Most of the sales literature for similar training is shrouded in more mystery, or in language that makes things sound a lot more like you’re going to become this awesome stud, until you look at the actual program synopsis or read reviews
But AMP is far from the only company training “inner”, “natural”, and “direct” game styles (all of which emphasize personal transformation, and open/honest communication). And some of those other companies are making millions. Annually.
Which means it’s not really the narrow niche you think it is. Availability bias and controversy creates distorted views.