I suspect that the ick reaction being labeled “objectification” actually has more to do with the sense that the speaker is addressing a closed group that doesn’t include you.
(Note) This is veering off the gender topic and into the objectification topic.
Objectification holds more problems than exclusivity. I remember someone once walking past me with a book titled “How to Win Friends and Influence People”. Apparently this book is extremely popular and one I never bothered to read, but I remember thinking that if you view friends as something to “win” you are already on the wrong track. Influencing people into being your friend is objectifying a process to the point of losing its intent. Part of the value in friendship is the process of becoming friends. The relationship itself is the focus, not the object of the relationship. By learning how to Win Friends you reduce the relationship to a game or a form of winning. The object of the relationship is still there, but the relationship itself may not hold as much value. (Or the same type of value?)
(Edit) Apparently the book itself agrees with me? As I said, I have not read it. I was merely making a point. The point has little to do with the book. Sorry for the confusion.
Ironically, the book’s advice is essentially to evoke in yourself genuine interest in what others have to say. You have to abandon the objectifying mindset to achieve the objective.
It occurred to me some time ago that there’s a lot I don’t know about communicating with people, a suspicion I’m happily finding to be true. So I browsed reviews of some books on the topic, many of which said most books are basically just “How to Win Friends and Influence People” in different words, and figured I ought to go to the source even if I had this conception in my head of the book as highly manipulative.
Having read it I agree with Cyan’s (best-of-all-possible-colors btw) and pjeby’s statements, and thought I’d say a few more things and recommend the book to those who are interested. The author (I only have this by his own admittance) did extensive reading of biographies and historical accounts before writing it, supposedly over 100 biographies of Teddy Roosevelt alone, and even hired a researcher for a year to help him out, which is probably why most books are largely a rehash.
I was surprised to find it’s generally quite respectable and considerate to the targets of persuasion (which includes all human beings), and a lot of it is good ideas which might seem obvious in hindsight but often go unused. Some are small like smiling and remembering people’s names, others are more substantial like admitting your own errors promptly and earnestly and understanding the other person’s view before you react to it. Another idea like ‘genuine interest’ that shows up multiple times in the book is that it really doesn’t get you anywhere to bludgeon people over the head with your ideas, even if you’re right, it tends to just make people more obdurate.
Admittedly in response to orthnormal he doesn’t really have any advice on how you are supposed to develop that genuine interest, so it could be through something like method acting, though he says once something like “people will tell if you’re faking”. Some of the points are mildly manipulative, not in the sense that you are ever promising someone something they won’t get, but in the sense of taking advantage of and satisfying what may be subgoals we’re wired to pursue, like feeling an active part of discussions, or wanting to live up to praise someone gives you.
Overall I’d recommend it as a good book for very civil and effective discourse, especially for those who care more about getting their points across than just looking really intelligent (which seems happily to be the majority on LW). The stigma around the book I thought was largely unfounded, and shouldn’t be allowed to maintain a state of affairs where only the truly self-interested read it.
I think you’ve reached the point of diminishing returns on the strategy of posting that link. If you really find Amanda and Muskie’s points compelling, why not make a top post about them? I’d certainly be interested in contributing to the resulting discussion.
I remember thinking that if you view friends as something to “win” you are already on the wrong track.
The book was written two generations ago; “win friends” is just a semi-antiquated figure of speech. If it were written today, it would probably be called something like, “How To Make Friends And Network Effectively”. Well, actually, it’d probably be called something a lot catchier, but you get my meaning, I hope. Language changes.
This is rather ironic, since the central message of that book is “be a genuinely nice and friendly person;” I have never heard it critcized as manipulative by anyone who actually read it.
(Note) This is veering off the gender topic and into the objectification topic.
Objectification holds more problems than exclusivity. I remember someone once walking past me with a book titled “How to Win Friends and Influence People”. Apparently this book is extremely popular and one I never bothered to read, but I remember thinking that if you view friends as something to “win” you are already on the wrong track. Influencing people into being your friend is objectifying a process to the point of losing its intent. Part of the value in friendship is the process of becoming friends. The relationship itself is the focus, not the object of the relationship. By learning how to Win Friends you reduce the relationship to a game or a form of winning. The object of the relationship is still there, but the relationship itself may not hold as much value. (Or the same type of value?)
(Edit) Apparently the book itself agrees with me? As I said, I have not read it. I was merely making a point. The point has little to do with the book. Sorry for the confusion.
Ironically, the book’s advice is essentially to evoke in yourself genuine interest in what others have to say. You have to abandon the objectifying mindset to achieve the objective.
“Genuine interest” meant here in much the same sense that a Method actor feels the “genuine emotion” scripted for them, AFAICT.
It occurred to me some time ago that there’s a lot I don’t know about communicating with people, a suspicion I’m happily finding to be true. So I browsed reviews of some books on the topic, many of which said most books are basically just “How to Win Friends and Influence People” in different words, and figured I ought to go to the source even if I had this conception in my head of the book as highly manipulative.
Having read it I agree with Cyan’s (best-of-all-possible-colors btw) and pjeby’s statements, and thought I’d say a few more things and recommend the book to those who are interested. The author (I only have this by his own admittance) did extensive reading of biographies and historical accounts before writing it, supposedly over 100 biographies of Teddy Roosevelt alone, and even hired a researcher for a year to help him out, which is probably why most books are largely a rehash.
I was surprised to find it’s generally quite respectable and considerate to the targets of persuasion (which includes all human beings), and a lot of it is good ideas which might seem obvious in hindsight but often go unused. Some are small like smiling and remembering people’s names, others are more substantial like admitting your own errors promptly and earnestly and understanding the other person’s view before you react to it. Another idea like ‘genuine interest’ that shows up multiple times in the book is that it really doesn’t get you anywhere to bludgeon people over the head with your ideas, even if you’re right, it tends to just make people more obdurate.
Admittedly in response to orthnormal he doesn’t really have any advice on how you are supposed to develop that genuine interest, so it could be through something like method acting, though he says once something like “people will tell if you’re faking”. Some of the points are mildly manipulative, not in the sense that you are ever promising someone something they won’t get, but in the sense of taking advantage of and satisfying what may be subgoals we’re wired to pursue, like feeling an active part of discussions, or wanting to live up to praise someone gives you.
Overall I’d recommend it as a good book for very civil and effective discourse, especially for those who care more about getting their points across than just looking really intelligent (which seems happily to be the majority on LW). The stigma around the book I thought was largely unfounded, and shouldn’t be allowed to maintain a state of affairs where only the truly self-interested read it.
Perhaps some of us object to its methods because it seems like taking advantage of people with a disability.
I think you’ve reached the point of diminishing returns on the strategy of posting that link. If you really find Amanda and Muskie’s points compelling, why not make a top post about them? I’d certainly be interested in contributing to the resulting discussion.
The book was written two generations ago; “win friends” is just a semi-antiquated figure of speech. If it were written today, it would probably be called something like, “How To Make Friends And Network Effectively”. Well, actually, it’d probably be called something a lot catchier, but you get my meaning, I hope. Language changes.
Good to know, thanks.
This is rather ironic, since the central message of that book is “be a genuinely nice and friendly person;” I have never heard it critcized as manipulative by anyone who actually read it.