You won’t get approached by women just for looking good
Oh come now. It’ll get you AIs and IOIs (Approach Invitations and Indicators of Interest), which are the female equivalent. (Of course, “looking good” includes dressing well and being well-groomed.)
Not for “ordering them around”, you didn’t; there was no parallel in the advice you gave for that.
Yes there was—be clear about what you want, and say it. This is merely one of the ways a woman would positively describe what you’re calling “ordering them around”.
Both descriptions carry subjective connotations, without being a truly accurate low-level description of “confident leadership” behaviors—and are equally biased.
A truly neutral description of the behaviors in question would be much longer to write, since it would need to describe behavioral guidelines in much more detail.
How are men supposed to know which advice is deception and which isn’t (or perhaps more politely, which advice reveals a lack of self-understanding / luminosity / going along with what one’s expected to say)?
WTF does that have to do with this discussion? I didn’t say men should try to learn PUA from women; there’s a clear and obvious advantage to learning them from men (for the most part).
(I’m skipping replying to the rest of your comment, because it’s just more down the same sinkhole.)
You seem to have confused me with the “PUA=bad” crowd, but nothing I said can’t be found in PUA materials. I’m also not in favor of banning PUA discussion on LW.
What I disagree with you on is the assertion of asymmetrical bias and social pressures for men and women regarding the “venusian arts”. Most of the asymmetry you assert disappears when you control for physical vs. mental, male vs. female goals, etc.
AFAICT, you are so stuck in anger about women, that you can’t see just how symmetrical the situation actually is for them. Men don’t give women good advice for what we want in long-term relationships, being just as likely to say we want one thing, but actually commit to another. And men are just as likely to be irritated when women point this out, as the reverse.
ISTM that one reason you don’t see this is that you keep talking about “beauty” techniques as the appropriate parallel to PUA, when that would only make sense if women’s evolutionarily-assigned mating goals had to do with short-term sexual interest, vs. long term bonding.
I also don’t get why you seem to keep making arguments about the culture at large, vs. rationalist culture and LessWrong. The two are different enough that you can hardly import the outside world here, and expect some sort of redress for wrongs that might be occurring elsewhere. That would be equivalent to a woman coming here and saying that we all should use “she” in our examples to make up for an excessive use of “he” in the world at large.
You seem to have confused me with the “PUA=bad” crowd, but nothing I said can’t be found in PUA materials. I’m also not in favor of banning PUA discussion on LW.
What? Where are you getting you this? I’ve long known you were not part of the “PUA = bad” crowd, and that you’re not in favor of banning. I would counterpropose that you’re interpreting my disagreement and occasional impatience as hostility, and assuming it carries over to other areas.
I’m going to delete the unhelpful psychoanalysis from the rest of these excerpts; they have nothing to do with the validity of my points and only serve to insult. If I’m wrong, let it be for some reason other than “Silas is a nut”.
you can’t see just how symmetrical the situation actually is for them. Men don’t give women good advice for what we want in long-term relationships,
Don’t speak for me; I’ve never been asked, and, on principle, I would refuse to give advice if I knew it would be skewed.
being just as likely to say we want one thing, but actually commit to another. And men are just as likely to be irritated when women point this out, as the reverse.
Again, speak for yourself—if I feel social pressures that keep me from being truthful, I say so rather than perpetuate what I know to be wrong. I imagine that if I were a woman, I’d adhere to the same standard and expect no less out of others, male or female.
ISTM that one reason you don’t see this is that you keep talking about “beauty” techniques as the appropriate parallel to PUA, when that would only make sense if women’s evolutionarily-assigned mating goals had to do with short-term sexual interest, vs. long term bonding.
Not really. I accept quite well that women usually aren’t going to be drawing men in for short-term sexual interest. Nevertheless, part of the necessary steps in getting “shortlisted” for a long-term relationship is looks, which is why I claim the parallel holds.
I also don’t get why you seem to keep making arguments about the culture at large, vs. rationalist culture and LessWrong.
’Cause it’s a critical example of bias and poor specification of values, maybe?
Now, for the rest:
It’ll get you AIs and IOIs (Approach Invitations and Indicators of Interest), which are the female equivalent.
Female AI/IOIs, by design, have plausible deniability. One can only take them as definitive at one’s own risk—that breaks the equivalence.
Yes there was—be clear about what you want, and say it. This is merely one of the ways a woman would positively describe what you’re calling “ordering them around”.
“I want beer” --> being clear about what I want, but not giving orders ”Bring me beer” --> being clear AND giving orders
I’ll accept that full specification of which is okay and which isn’t, is going to be difficult. Point taken, and I’ll stop bringing it up. But on this issue, at least, you’re going two far in blurring very different concepts.
I’ll accept that full specification of which is okay and which isn’t, is going to be difficult.
Especially since:
“I want beer” (with a strong voice and expectant eye contact) --> Being clear about what I want and communicating that my mere wishes should implicitly be interpreted as orders.
“Bring me beer” (lowered eyes, end of the sentence raised slightly in pitch) --> Making an uncertain claim about what I want, with a supplicating request for action.
What I disagree with you on is the assertion of asymmetrical bias and social pressures for men and women regarding the “venusian arts”.
A potential asymmetry that is of some interest is a difference in (typical) ability to separate ‘far mode’ signalling beliefs and ‘near mode’ actions.
Men don’t give women good advice for what we want in long-term relationships, being just as likely to say we want one thing, but actually commit to another.
Now I’m curious. What do men say we want in long-term relationships and what do we actually commit to? I think I know what I want but when it comes to related areas (what I want from work life) I have atypical preferences so I am not comfortable generalising from a sample of me.
A potential asymmetry that is of some interest is a difference in (typical) ability to separate ‘far mode’ signalling beliefs and ‘near mode’ actions.
Certainly, it’s easier to make anything more palatable if you talk about in “far”—which of course is the whole point of “far” thinking in the first place. ;-)
What do men say we want in long-term relationships and what do we actually commit to?
Maybe you should ask a woman that question—honestly, I’m not sure how comfortable I am with trying to answer it in any detail.
Actually, contemplating just how uncomfortable I am with trying to say what I know, makes me considerably more sympathetic to why women don’t often give guys good advice. No matter how true or useful the information might be to the opposite sex, there is considerable social stigma (from one’s own sex) attached to telling the truth.
(Imagine the social consequences if a woman said she wanted guys to boss her around, or a guy said he wanted a woman who wasn’t always interested in sex when he was. And that assumes that either the man or the woman are able to notice this not-necessarily-conscious preference in themselves, and admit to it, before the social stigma issue can even come up!)
Certainly, it’s easier to make anything more palatable if you talk about in “far”—which of course is the whole point of “far” thinking in the first place. ;-)
(A different tangent to where mine lead but:) No, some things are much more palatable in ‘near’, particularly when talking to those who believe they have correlated interests.
Imagine the social consequences if a woman said she wanted guys to boss her around
I know women who say that, particularly to other women and do so without losing status and while maintaining rapport. They are less inclined to say it around guys but if, to give an example, I said ‘you love it’ they would take girlish pleasure and agree. One of the messages communicated is ‘Oh, great, he doesn’t believe in Santa Claus. We don’t need to lie to him’.
or a guy said he wanted a woman who wasn’t always interested in sex when he was.
Really? Guys actually act like they want to commit to a woman who is not always interested in sex when he is? With the aforementioned caveat that I do not generalise from me I have extremely strong evidence that this doesn’t apply in my case. (And thanks for giving your answer without answering.)
Really? Guys actually act like they want to commit to a woman who is not always interested in sex when he is?
Why do you think women are advised not to have sex on the first date, and not to be a man’s “booty call”, if they want a relationship?
Why do you think men routinely have affairs with women who’ll have sex with them, while remaining married to a woman who’s not?
I’m not saying guys like this—I’m saying that this is an example of controversial mating advice that works for “women’s goals”, in the same way that PUA does for “men’s goals”.
(Both phrases being in quotes because not all men and women have the same goals.)
Why do you think women are advised not to have sex on the first date, and not to be a man’s “booty call”, if they want a relationship?
That is good evidence.
Why do you think men routinely have affairs with women who’ll have sex with them, while remaining married to a woman who’s not?
That I do not find nearly persuasive. Men are less likely to have affairs when their sex life within the marriage is healthy. They are also less likely to end the marriage.
I’m not saying guys like this—I’m saying that this is an example of controversial mating advice that works for “women’s goals”, in the same way that PUA does for “men’s goals”.
That’s what I was allowing for when I said ‘act like’ (economic ‘want’).
Do you believe that ‘be less interested in sex’ would be helpful advice for maintaining a long term relationship that has already formed? I don’t deny the possibility, just assert that (concrete evidence indicates) this is definitely not works with me.
A relevant quote:
Elliot:Oh, my God! You’re actually getting married in a few hours! I mean, everything’s gonna be all different. Carla, you never have to have sex again except for when you actually want to. Carla:I know!!!
The quote is rather tongue in cheek but I would not rule out an element of truth (to the suggestion that without the externally enforced obligation more sex is required for maintenance and to secure marriage). In fact, high quality sources of dating advice often give suggestions on how manage such dynamics for the benefit of both parties.
Do you believe that ‘be less interested in sex’ would be helpful advice for maintaining a long term relationship that has already formed? I don’t deny the possibility, just assert that (concrete evidence indicates) this is definitely not works with me.
I think you’re misinterpreting the scope of what I said. I didn’t say that lack of interest in sex was attractive—it isn’t.
I said, “isn’t always interested”—i.e., variable reinforcement. I think it’s the case that a man will be most satisfied in a relationship when his partner expresses sexual interest and attraction on an ongoing basis, but nonetheless does not say “yes” to all requests to do something about it, or has variability in how far that interaction proceeds. Having sex whenever a guy wants to is potentially as damaging to a relationship as never having sex at all, in the same way that too-difficult and too-easy tasks don’t lead to a “flow” state.
I’ve seen relationship advice for women that actually described a relationship in terms of a video game, advising that there always be new challenges and levels to unlock, so to speak, so that things don’t get too predictable. For that matter, I’ve seen relationship advice for men that was basically the same, although I find it amusing that it was the advice for women that used the videogame analogy. (And written by a female author, at that.)
(OTOH, men are stereotypically interested in videogames, so I guess explaining that you need to be like a videogame to keep a man interested would make more sense than the reverse analogy.)
I said, “isn’t always interested”—i.e., variable reinforcement.
Got you! (Although even so, observation suggest that isn’t what works best on me.)
For that matter, I’ve seen relationship advice for men that was basically the same
I’ve actually seen a lot of good advice for guys of the form “If a girl did that how would you react? No, really. Well, it’s the same for girls.” Once people actually have a strongly developed self awareness that sort of direct empathy actually works rather well.
although I find it amusing that it was the advice for women that used the videogame analogy. (And written by a female author, at that.)
(OTOH, men are stereotypically interested in videogames, so I guess explaining that you need to be like a videogame to keep a man interested would make more sense than the reverse analogy.)
True.
Got you! (Although even so, observation suggest that isn’t what works best on me.)
Be aware that I’m saying in the ideal case, the woman isn’t saying no because she doesn’t want to have sex, or doesn’t find you attractive at that moment. (Or even that she’s necessarily saying “no” at all.)
I’m saying that the “flow” experience comes about from having obstacles that are a good match for your skill at overcoming them. It can easily appear to the man in such a circumstance that he is in fact getting sex as often as he wants, just not as soon as he might want it. A good “courtship” videogame may provide hours or days of enjoyment for both parties, prior to unlocking a new level. ;-)
(In contrast, having “god mode” on for a game might be interesting for a time, but quickly become boring. The reason “crazy chicks” have a reputation for being good in bed may well be as much about the crazy before, as the bed after.)
So, I think we’ve now succeeded in having a conversation about what works to attract men, that might be able to be found as offensive as the reverse. Let’s see what happens. ;-)
So, I think we’ve now succeeded in having a conversation about what works to attract men, that might be able to be found as offensive as the reverse. Let’s see what happens. ;-)
I think you’re right. (And our conversation has also reached an agreement).
So, the sound bite version is “To get a man to commit, be a tease?”
Only in the same way that the pejorative and inaccurate soundbite for PUA is, “To get a woman to have sex, be a jerk.” There’s an awful lot lost in both translations. ;-)
Oh come now. It’ll get you AIs and IOIs (Approach Invitations and Indicators of Interest), which are the female equivalent. (Of course, “looking good” includes dressing well and being well-groomed.)
Yes there was—be clear about what you want, and say it. This is merely one of the ways a woman would positively describe what you’re calling “ordering them around”.
Both descriptions carry subjective connotations, without being a truly accurate low-level description of “confident leadership” behaviors—and are equally biased.
A truly neutral description of the behaviors in question would be much longer to write, since it would need to describe behavioral guidelines in much more detail.
WTF does that have to do with this discussion? I didn’t say men should try to learn PUA from women; there’s a clear and obvious advantage to learning them from men (for the most part).
(I’m skipping replying to the rest of your comment, because it’s just more down the same sinkhole.)
You seem to have confused me with the “PUA=bad” crowd, but nothing I said can’t be found in PUA materials. I’m also not in favor of banning PUA discussion on LW.
What I disagree with you on is the assertion of asymmetrical bias and social pressures for men and women regarding the “venusian arts”. Most of the asymmetry you assert disappears when you control for physical vs. mental, male vs. female goals, etc.
AFAICT, you are so stuck in anger about women, that you can’t see just how symmetrical the situation actually is for them. Men don’t give women good advice for what we want in long-term relationships, being just as likely to say we want one thing, but actually commit to another. And men are just as likely to be irritated when women point this out, as the reverse.
ISTM that one reason you don’t see this is that you keep talking about “beauty” techniques as the appropriate parallel to PUA, when that would only make sense if women’s evolutionarily-assigned mating goals had to do with short-term sexual interest, vs. long term bonding.
I also don’t get why you seem to keep making arguments about the culture at large, vs. rationalist culture and LessWrong. The two are different enough that you can hardly import the outside world here, and expect some sort of redress for wrongs that might be occurring elsewhere. That would be equivalent to a woman coming here and saying that we all should use “she” in our examples to make up for an excessive use of “he” in the world at large.
I will start from your more personal remarks:
What? Where are you getting you this? I’ve long known you were not part of the “PUA = bad” crowd, and that you’re not in favor of banning. I would counterpropose that you’re interpreting my disagreement and occasional impatience as hostility, and assuming it carries over to other areas.
I’m going to delete the unhelpful psychoanalysis from the rest of these excerpts; they have nothing to do with the validity of my points and only serve to insult. If I’m wrong, let it be for some reason other than “Silas is a nut”.
Don’t speak for me; I’ve never been asked, and, on principle, I would refuse to give advice if I knew it would be skewed.
Again, speak for yourself—if I feel social pressures that keep me from being truthful, I say so rather than perpetuate what I know to be wrong. I imagine that if I were a woman, I’d adhere to the same standard and expect no less out of others, male or female.
Not really. I accept quite well that women usually aren’t going to be drawing men in for short-term sexual interest. Nevertheless, part of the necessary steps in getting “shortlisted” for a long-term relationship is looks, which is why I claim the parallel holds.
’Cause it’s a critical example of bias and poor specification of values, maybe?
Now, for the rest:
Female AI/IOIs, by design, have plausible deniability. One can only take them as definitive at one’s own risk—that breaks the equivalence.
“I want beer” --> being clear about what I want, but not giving orders
”Bring me beer” --> being clear AND giving orders
I’ll accept that full specification of which is okay and which isn’t, is going to be difficult. Point taken, and I’ll stop bringing it up. But on this issue, at least, you’re going two far in blurring very different concepts.
Especially since:
“I want beer” (with a strong voice and expectant eye contact) --> Being clear about what I want and communicating that my mere wishes should implicitly be interpreted as orders. “Bring me beer” (lowered eyes, end of the sentence raised slightly in pitch) --> Making an uncertain claim about what I want, with a supplicating request for action.
A potential asymmetry that is of some interest is a difference in (typical) ability to separate ‘far mode’ signalling beliefs and ‘near mode’ actions.
Now I’m curious. What do men say we want in long-term relationships and what do we actually commit to? I think I know what I want but when it comes to related areas (what I want from work life) I have atypical preferences so I am not comfortable generalising from a sample of me.
Certainly, it’s easier to make anything more palatable if you talk about in “far”—which of course is the whole point of “far” thinking in the first place. ;-)
Maybe you should ask a woman that question—honestly, I’m not sure how comfortable I am with trying to answer it in any detail.
Actually, contemplating just how uncomfortable I am with trying to say what I know, makes me considerably more sympathetic to why women don’t often give guys good advice. No matter how true or useful the information might be to the opposite sex, there is considerable social stigma (from one’s own sex) attached to telling the truth.
(Imagine the social consequences if a woman said she wanted guys to boss her around, or a guy said he wanted a woman who wasn’t always interested in sex when he was. And that assumes that either the man or the woman are able to notice this not-necessarily-conscious preference in themselves, and admit to it, before the social stigma issue can even come up!)
(A different tangent to where mine lead but:) No, some things are much more palatable in ‘near’, particularly when talking to those who believe they have correlated interests.
I know women who say that, particularly to other women and do so without losing status and while maintaining rapport. They are less inclined to say it around guys but if, to give an example, I said ‘you love it’ they would take girlish pleasure and agree. One of the messages communicated is ‘Oh, great, he doesn’t believe in Santa Claus. We don’t need to lie to him’.
Really? Guys actually act like they want to commit to a woman who is not always interested in sex when he is? With the aforementioned caveat that I do not generalise from me I have extremely strong evidence that this doesn’t apply in my case. (And thanks for giving your answer without answering.)
Why do you think women are advised not to have sex on the first date, and not to be a man’s “booty call”, if they want a relationship?
Why do you think men routinely have affairs with women who’ll have sex with them, while remaining married to a woman who’s not?
I’m not saying guys like this—I’m saying that this is an example of controversial mating advice that works for “women’s goals”, in the same way that PUA does for “men’s goals”.
(Both phrases being in quotes because not all men and women have the same goals.)
That is good evidence.
That I do not find nearly persuasive. Men are less likely to have affairs when their sex life within the marriage is healthy. They are also less likely to end the marriage.
That’s what I was allowing for when I said ‘act like’ (economic ‘want’).
Do you believe that ‘be less interested in sex’ would be helpful advice for maintaining a long term relationship that has already formed? I don’t deny the possibility, just assert that (concrete evidence indicates) this is definitely not works with me.
A relevant quote:
The quote is rather tongue in cheek but I would not rule out an element of truth (to the suggestion that without the externally enforced obligation more sex is required for maintenance and to secure marriage). In fact, high quality sources of dating advice often give suggestions on how manage such dynamics for the benefit of both parties.
I think you’re misinterpreting the scope of what I said. I didn’t say that lack of interest in sex was attractive—it isn’t.
I said, “isn’t always interested”—i.e., variable reinforcement. I think it’s the case that a man will be most satisfied in a relationship when his partner expresses sexual interest and attraction on an ongoing basis, but nonetheless does not say “yes” to all requests to do something about it, or has variability in how far that interaction proceeds. Having sex whenever a guy wants to is potentially as damaging to a relationship as never having sex at all, in the same way that too-difficult and too-easy tasks don’t lead to a “flow” state.
I’ve seen relationship advice for women that actually described a relationship in terms of a video game, advising that there always be new challenges and levels to unlock, so to speak, so that things don’t get too predictable. For that matter, I’ve seen relationship advice for men that was basically the same, although I find it amusing that it was the advice for women that used the videogame analogy. (And written by a female author, at that.)
(OTOH, men are stereotypically interested in videogames, so I guess explaining that you need to be like a videogame to keep a man interested would make more sense than the reverse analogy.)
Got you! (Although even so, observation suggest that isn’t what works best on me.)
I’ve actually seen a lot of good advice for guys of the form “If a girl did that how would you react? No, really. Well, it’s the same for girls.” Once people actually have a strongly developed self awareness that sort of direct empathy actually works rather well.
(OTOH, men are stereotypically interested in videogames, so I guess explaining that you need to be like a videogame to keep a man interested would make more sense than the reverse analogy.) True.
Be aware that I’m saying in the ideal case, the woman isn’t saying no because she doesn’t want to have sex, or doesn’t find you attractive at that moment. (Or even that she’s necessarily saying “no” at all.)
I’m saying that the “flow” experience comes about from having obstacles that are a good match for your skill at overcoming them. It can easily appear to the man in such a circumstance that he is in fact getting sex as often as he wants, just not as soon as he might want it. A good “courtship” videogame may provide hours or days of enjoyment for both parties, prior to unlocking a new level. ;-)
(In contrast, having “god mode” on for a game might be interesting for a time, but quickly become boring. The reason “crazy chicks” have a reputation for being good in bed may well be as much about the crazy before, as the bed after.)
So, I think we’ve now succeeded in having a conversation about what works to attract men, that might be able to be found as offensive as the reverse. Let’s see what happens. ;-)
I think you’re right. (And our conversation has also reached an agreement).
So, the sound bite version is “To get a man to commit, be a tease?”
Only in the same way that the pejorative and inaccurate soundbite for PUA is, “To get a woman to have sex, be a jerk.” There’s an awful lot lost in both translations. ;-)
Perhaps, I would say that better paraphrases the earlier comments in he conversation than the later ones.