Could you elaborate on what you consider the dividing line to be? Is it merely the awareness of the target of the techniques being employed? I’m not sure I’m comfortable with that as a dividing line: I enjoy music and the effect it has on my emotions despite not being sufficiently knowledgeable about music to understand the mechanics of how to achieve a particular emotional effect. I am aware such techniques exist but I don’t know the details. Similarly with female beauty enhancement. I’m more aware of the techniques film makers use to manipulate emotions because I have spent quite a lot of time learning about them but when enjoying a film in the moment I do not wish to consciously focus on them.
Could you elaborate on what you consider the dividing line to be?
I think that the best heuristic is to look for bottom-lining. Have you decided on what you want to convince her of before you have determined what evidence you will selectively show her to bring her to that conclusion? If so, you might be practicing dark side epistemology.
I don’t think that the case with music is the same in general. First, merely convincing you to like something is different from convincing you that something is true. Merely convincing you to think that I’m attractive is one thing. Inducing you to do so by convincing you that there’s something strange about how your hair looks is another.
Second, suppose that I want you to buy my songs. if I want to convince you that my music is good, then the honest way to do so is to figure out what you like in music, and then to make music with those qualities. But note that there’s no bottom-lining here. When you get the song, you will ideally listen to it first, and then draw the conclusion that it’s good.
I think that the best heuristic is to look for bottom-lining. Have you decided on what you want to convince her of before you have determined what evidence you will selectively show her to bring her to that conclusion? If so, you might be practicing dark side epistemology.
This is an interesting argument, but I don’t think that you can hold the same standards of epistemic rationality to matters of social perception. To a large extent, coolness, social status, and attractiveness are subjective qualities that depend on the perception of others. The Earth will not become flatter because you persuade a lot of people that it is flat, but if you can persuade a lot of people that you are cool, then you probably really are cool (general “you,” of course).
There is nothing wrong with deciding in advance what “bottom line” conclusion you want people to hold about you (e.g. that you are cool, high status, or attractive), because if you successfully behave in way that influences people to have that perception, then it often magically becomes true, making your original behavior legitimate. Even if you are a shy person adopting that behavior for the first time. At least, it is true in the context of interaction with those people. And if you fail to give them that perception (“this guy isn’t as cool as he thinks he is”), then no harm is done because they see through you.
There is nothing “dark side” about trying to act as cool, high status, or attractive as possible, and trying to push the limits (as long as this behavior isn’t based on lying or deception). People will either accept you as having those attributes, or they won’t. (The only ethical exception is in cases of actual lying or deception, such as about one’s job, age, finances, history, social position, etc… In this case, it does become meaningful to say that someone’s social perception of you can be based on false pretenses.)
The “truth” about your “real” status and attractiveness is not something that you yourself can decide in advance; at best, you only have a confidence interval. Since you don’t know where your “real” status and attractiveness lie, then you shouldn’t worry so much about deceiving people about it. Instead of trying to decide your status in advance and “protect” people from having an inflated perception of it, you should try to figure out your status by interacting with people and seeing what behavior others accept from you and respond well to (in more cynical terms, “see what you can get away with”). Other people are perfectly capable of protecting themselves from you acting too big for your britches.
People will tell you, explicitly or implicitly, how cool and attractive you are; there is no need for you to try to decide for them. I will hypothesize that this is how most normal people conduct social interaction, and there is nothing wrong with nerdy people knowingly replicating the same behavior even if it isn’t intuitive to them.
Social perception: the only place in the universe where perception actually is reality (at least, to a large degree).
I think that the best heuristic is to look for bottom-lining. Have you decided on what you want to convince her of before you have determined what evidence you will selectively show her to bring her to that conclusion? If so, you might be practicing dark side epistemology.
While that sounds nice in theory, it’s not realistic. In all human interaction people try to present their best attributes first. This is normal and generally harmless. In fact, most people would find it quite odd if when someone introduced themselves they instantly revealed their major self-perceived flaws. If you continue to withhold important information that you know is likely to be perceived negatively by another person over a long period then you start to cross a line that most people would consider unreasonable but I think you need to offer a more restrictive definition of what is considered the ‘dark side’ unless you want to rule out most normal human interaction.
It seems that ‘dark side’ gets used in two somewhat different ways here. What Eliezer describes in Dark Side Epistemology seems a narrower definition than is sometimes employed by others. I haven’t seen a clear definition of this broader meaning but it appears to include techniques that are calculated to produce a particular effect in the audience and incorporates the kinds of ‘tricks’ that artists use to make their works emotionally resonant and powerful.
It seems that ‘dark side’ gets used in two somewhat different ways here.
Dark Side Epistemology is something you do to yourself; the Dark Arts are methods you use on other people (or they use ’em on you). Unfortunately, the names are similar enough and human memory is buggy enough that it’s a name collision for most people.
Could you elaborate on what you consider the dividing line to be? Is it merely the awareness of the target of the techniques being employed? I’m not sure I’m comfortable with that as a dividing line: I enjoy music and the effect it has on my emotions despite not being sufficiently knowledgeable about music to understand the mechanics of how to achieve a particular emotional effect. I am aware such techniques exist but I don’t know the details. Similarly with female beauty enhancement. I’m more aware of the techniques film makers use to manipulate emotions because I have spent quite a lot of time learning about them but when enjoying a film in the moment I do not wish to consciously focus on them.
I think that the best heuristic is to look for bottom-lining. Have you decided on what you want to convince her of before you have determined what evidence you will selectively show her to bring her to that conclusion? If so, you might be practicing dark side epistemology.
I don’t think that the case with music is the same in general. First, merely convincing you to like something is different from convincing you that something is true. Merely convincing you to think that I’m attractive is one thing. Inducing you to do so by convincing you that there’s something strange about how your hair looks is another.
Second, suppose that I want you to buy my songs. if I want to convince you that my music is good, then the honest way to do so is to figure out what you like in music, and then to make music with those qualities. But note that there’s no bottom-lining here. When you get the song, you will ideally listen to it first, and then draw the conclusion that it’s good.
This is an interesting argument, but I don’t think that you can hold the same standards of epistemic rationality to matters of social perception. To a large extent, coolness, social status, and attractiveness are subjective qualities that depend on the perception of others. The Earth will not become flatter because you persuade a lot of people that it is flat, but if you can persuade a lot of people that you are cool, then you probably really are cool (general “you,” of course).
There is nothing wrong with deciding in advance what “bottom line” conclusion you want people to hold about you (e.g. that you are cool, high status, or attractive), because if you successfully behave in way that influences people to have that perception, then it often magically becomes true, making your original behavior legitimate. Even if you are a shy person adopting that behavior for the first time. At least, it is true in the context of interaction with those people. And if you fail to give them that perception (“this guy isn’t as cool as he thinks he is”), then no harm is done because they see through you.
There is nothing “dark side” about trying to act as cool, high status, or attractive as possible, and trying to push the limits (as long as this behavior isn’t based on lying or deception). People will either accept you as having those attributes, or they won’t. (The only ethical exception is in cases of actual lying or deception, such as about one’s job, age, finances, history, social position, etc… In this case, it does become meaningful to say that someone’s social perception of you can be based on false pretenses.)
The “truth” about your “real” status and attractiveness is not something that you yourself can decide in advance; at best, you only have a confidence interval. Since you don’t know where your “real” status and attractiveness lie, then you shouldn’t worry so much about deceiving people about it. Instead of trying to decide your status in advance and “protect” people from having an inflated perception of it, you should try to figure out your status by interacting with people and seeing what behavior others accept from you and respond well to (in more cynical terms, “see what you can get away with”). Other people are perfectly capable of protecting themselves from you acting too big for your britches.
People will tell you, explicitly or implicitly, how cool and attractive you are; there is no need for you to try to decide for them. I will hypothesize that this is how most normal people conduct social interaction, and there is nothing wrong with nerdy people knowingly replicating the same behavior even if it isn’t intuitive to them.
Social perception: the only place in the universe where perception actually is reality (at least, to a large degree).
While that sounds nice in theory, it’s not realistic. In all human interaction people try to present their best attributes first. This is normal and generally harmless. In fact, most people would find it quite odd if when someone introduced themselves they instantly revealed their major self-perceived flaws. If you continue to withhold important information that you know is likely to be perceived negatively by another person over a long period then you start to cross a line that most people would consider unreasonable but I think you need to offer a more restrictive definition of what is considered the ‘dark side’ unless you want to rule out most normal human interaction.
It seems that ‘dark side’ gets used in two somewhat different ways here. What Eliezer describes in Dark Side Epistemology seems a narrower definition than is sometimes employed by others. I haven’t seen a clear definition of this broader meaning but it appears to include techniques that are calculated to produce a particular effect in the audience and incorporates the kinds of ‘tricks’ that artists use to make their works emotionally resonant and powerful.
Dark Side Epistemology is something you do to yourself; the Dark Arts are methods you use on other people (or they use ’em on you). Unfortunately, the names are similar enough and human memory is buggy enough that it’s a name collision for most people.
That’s why it was renamed anti-epistemology.
Alas, the damage is done. Too bad we can’t just update a DNS server-equivalent and have the change propagate to everybody’s brains.
Indeed, though I wonder why the older posts on it weren’t updated (or at least had notes on the naming added to them).