Hopefully this site is not strictly preaching to the choir. Someone who believes people here have good ideas and understands why you should probably be charitable to naive generalizations or somewhat offensive assertions made here will not have a problem occasionally running into them.
However, it is not hard to imagine an individual unfamiliar with “rationalism” seeing a few too many posts on pickup artists and deciding their time would be better spent on another site.
At current tech levels, I do not believe it will be possible for a rationalist to stop being a girl or a guy. Additionally, I don’t know that it’s even desirable for people to try to think only in a gender-neutral fashion, any more than it would necessarily be desirable for humans and Happies to try to think only in species-neutral terms.
It is desireable to think in a rational fashion. Prioritizing your gender is not rational, optimal, or desirable for pursuing rational discussion.
Gender is salient and important in some discussions, but it is not the only salient part of your identity. I am amazed this even needs to be said, but here it is anyway: you don’t have to stop thinking like your gender ALL THE TIME. Just ignore your hormones when they are not salient to the topic at hand, as surely you do any time you are not interacting with bedable members of the appropriate gender.
Humans are meat puppets run by hormones, but at least we can recognize the hormonal signal and, you know, not respond when it’s innapropriate.
It might be considerate to realize that females do have a legitimate reason for why they are more salient to their own sex and issues regarding gender. More so than males. This is because society treats male-ness as the norm versus female-ness, which is treated as special. As a result, many females become VERY AWARE of the fact they are female, have female genitalia, are treated “differently” because of their sex. Perhaps a lot of this awareness is in fact, subconscious. But none-the-less, this results in a stronger identification with their own gender. Whereas males have less problem disassociating with their own genitalia.
Becoming a good rationalist is a journey one takes, not something one “is” or “isn’t”. It is insulting to simply say “you’re not a good rationalist if...” and then hold everyone to these standards.
I’m not saying your end-goal isn’t correct, but the way to attract people to a site like this is not to BEGIN by assuming everyone is a “good rationalist” but that more people start out as “bad rationalists” and attracting them might take different approaches than what is rationally optimal or acceptable to current members.
This comment was never intended to attract people to the site, so your last paragraph is not relevant.
I think that most of the discussion of content quality around here revolves around either community-building or effective rational inquiry. It is a valid criticism of any comment to say that it fails at community-building, though it’s not necessarily a standard everyone needs to worry about all the time.
Your comment begins “It might be considerate to realize that females do have a legitimate reason for why they are more salient to their own sex and issues regarding gender”.
In saying this, you are telling me (a female) that I need to realize something about females. This is questionable, at best, and is so regardless of your own gender.
Then you conclude ”… a stronger identification with their own gender. ”
to which I reply “Balderdash”.
Gender is a part of one’s identity, obviously, but to say that women can’t help but feel theirs is more salient is a broad-strokes over-generalizing statement that is ultimately as patroniaing as anything else that can or has been taken to be biased against women. It effectively says “Oh, women can’t help but feel they are treated differently,” and in doing so, treats them differently.
Do you understand the objection, now?
More to the point, my original comment was expressing that rationality is NOT a gender issue. I very strongly believe that to let gender issues interfere in one’s goals, be they rationality goals or not, is a bad move. That is all.
I have to object to your first objection there. What can you claim to know about the female sex in general solely based on the fact that you yourself are female? You are just a data point. So, regardless of your gender, I think it’s fairly legitimate to say, “You need to realize something about females.”
That something—whether females identify with their own gender more strongly than males—is absolutely verifiable using scientific channels. The only thing that may be objectionable about my statements—is if they’re flat-out wrong.
But to remedy that is easy—just find the truth.
Your objections threw me off. I could understand saying, “That hasn’t been verified.” But to say, “I’m a female, so you shouldn’t lecture me on females”—something struck me as wrong about that. Can we agree on this or am I falling for bad logic?
As for the last statement, I respect your belief that gender issues interfere with your goals. But the way you stated it in the original post was judgmental. You could have just presented a rational case for it. Or is that not the way things run around here? Is it better to insult everyone that doesn’t think the way you do?
Can we agree on this or am I falling for bad logic?
We can certainly agree on this point. Though I hasten to add that if you had indeed presented some sort of research, I would not have made the comment. Without objective fact behind it, it smacked of condescencion.
the way you stated it in the original post was judgmental.
I made no original post. I urge you to read the actual original post my comment was made to respond to, and the threads the prompted it. I will not be recapping the gender kerfluffle for you.
Or is that not the way things run around here? Is it better to insult everyone that doesn’t think the way you do?
That something, whether females identify with their own gender more strongly than males. Is absolutely verifiable using scientific channels. As long as the right questions are being asked, and the data is properly handled. The only thing that may be objectionable about my statements—is if they’re flat-out wrong.
(The point is good but it is obscured by punctuation. Extra proof reading is recommended when potential readers do not have an incentive to be persuaded by your words.)
More to the point, my original comment was expressing that rationality is NOT a gender issue. I very strongly believe that to let gender issues interfere in one’s goals, be they rationality goals or not, is a bad move. That is all.
You could say the same thing about any bias. If it were shown that, for example, young people are more susceptible to confirmation bias, it would be useful for a young rationalist to know that, and it would not be a good objection for a young person to respond, “please refrain from lecturing a young person on what young people do or do not do.” (and saying “You are not your age” probably doesn’t help.)
If you believe that letting gender issues interfere in one’s goals is a form of bias, then you should believe it’s precisely the sort of thing that we should be aware of, and your objection (if any) should have been that orange seems to be making a dubious claim, and he should have to provide experimental evidence to back it up.
Out of curiosity, do you mean that you have been adversely affected by objectification in your life, or adversely affected by instances of objectification on this site?
I meant the former. Instances of objectification that, if described, sound like what has been described in certain threads. I have most certainly not been affected by the discussions on this site itself. I am not so thin-skinned as to feel objectified by words on a screen.
I think anyone who feels excluded as a gender is not a very good rationalist, and therefore might want to shut up and study some more.
You are not your genetalia. Stop being a girl or a guy; put your rationalist hat back on. PLEASE.
For the record, I’m female and have been adversely affected by what other females have called objectification on this site.
Hopefully this site is not strictly preaching to the choir. Someone who believes people here have good ideas and understands why you should probably be charitable to naive generalizations or somewhat offensive assertions made here will not have a problem occasionally running into them.
However, it is not hard to imagine an individual unfamiliar with “rationalism” seeing a few too many posts on pickup artists and deciding their time would be better spent on another site.
If the person is familiar with PUAs, won’t they just laugh and ignore the posts? That’s what I did until this ugly gender/hormonal mess flared up.
At current tech levels, I do not believe it will be possible for a rationalist to stop being a girl or a guy. Additionally, I don’t know that it’s even desirable for people to try to think only in a gender-neutral fashion, any more than it would necessarily be desirable for humans and Happies to try to think only in species-neutral terms.
It is desireable to think in a rational fashion. Prioritizing your gender is not rational, optimal, or desirable for pursuing rational discussion.
Gender is salient and important in some discussions, but it is not the only salient part of your identity. I am amazed this even needs to be said, but here it is anyway: you don’t have to stop thinking like your gender ALL THE TIME. Just ignore your hormones when they are not salient to the topic at hand, as surely you do any time you are not interacting with bedable members of the appropriate gender.
Humans are meat puppets run by hormones, but at least we can recognize the hormonal signal and, you know, not respond when it’s innapropriate.
Seconding this sentiment.
Personally, I cannot even fathom why people seem to consider it an unusually significant part of their identity compared to other traits.
Agreed
It might be considerate to realize that females do have a legitimate reason for why they are more salient to their own sex and issues regarding gender. More so than males. This is because society treats male-ness as the norm versus female-ness, which is treated as special. As a result, many females become VERY AWARE of the fact they are female, have female genitalia, are treated “differently” because of their sex. Perhaps a lot of this awareness is in fact, subconscious. But none-the-less, this results in a stronger identification with their own gender. Whereas males have less problem disassociating with their own genitalia.
Becoming a good rationalist is a journey one takes, not something one “is” or “isn’t”. It is insulting to simply say “you’re not a good rationalist if...” and then hold everyone to these standards.
I’m not saying your end-goal isn’t correct, but the way to attract people to a site like this is not to BEGIN by assuming everyone is a “good rationalist” but that more people start out as “bad rationalists” and attracting them might take different approaches than what is rationally optimal or acceptable to current members.
This comment was never intended to attract people to the site, so your last paragraph is not relevant.
Please refrain from lecturing a female on what females do or do not do.
I think that most of the discussion of content quality around here revolves around either community-building or effective rational inquiry. It is a valid criticism of any comment to say that it fails at community-building, though it’s not necessarily a standard everyone needs to worry about all the time.
Please explain your second statement exactly. I don’t see why you have this objection.
Your comment begins “It might be considerate to realize that females do have a legitimate reason for why they are more salient to their own sex and issues regarding gender”.
In saying this, you are telling me (a female) that I need to realize something about females. This is questionable, at best, and is so regardless of your own gender.
Then you conclude ”… a stronger identification with their own gender. ” to which I reply “Balderdash”.
Gender is a part of one’s identity, obviously, but to say that women can’t help but feel theirs is more salient is a broad-strokes over-generalizing statement that is ultimately as patroniaing as anything else that can or has been taken to be biased against women. It effectively says “Oh, women can’t help but feel they are treated differently,” and in doing so, treats them differently.
Do you understand the objection, now?
More to the point, my original comment was expressing that rationality is NOT a gender issue. I very strongly believe that to let gender issues interfere in one’s goals, be they rationality goals or not, is a bad move. That is all.
The site lost my response; bugger.
I have to object to your first objection there. What can you claim to know about the female sex in general solely based on the fact that you yourself are female? You are just a data point. So, regardless of your gender, I think it’s fairly legitimate to say, “You need to realize something about females.”
That something—whether females identify with their own gender more strongly than males—is absolutely verifiable using scientific channels. The only thing that may be objectionable about my statements—is if they’re flat-out wrong.
But to remedy that is easy—just find the truth.
Your objections threw me off. I could understand saying, “That hasn’t been verified.” But to say, “I’m a female, so you shouldn’t lecture me on females”—something struck me as wrong about that. Can we agree on this or am I falling for bad logic?
As for the last statement, I respect your belief that gender issues interfere with your goals. But the way you stated it in the original post was judgmental. You could have just presented a rational case for it. Or is that not the way things run around here? Is it better to insult everyone that doesn’t think the way you do?
We can certainly agree on this point. Though I hasten to add that if you had indeed presented some sort of research, I would not have made the comment. Without objective fact behind it, it smacked of condescencion.
I made no original post. I urge you to read the actual original post my comment was made to respond to, and the threads the prompted it. I will not be recapping the gender kerfluffle for you.
Consider your bait safely ignored.
(The point is good but it is obscured by punctuation. Extra proof reading is recommended when potential readers do not have an incentive to be persuaded by your words.)
I do that on purpose. But I’ll fix it.
You could say the same thing about any bias. If it were shown that, for example, young people are more susceptible to confirmation bias, it would be useful for a young rationalist to know that, and it would not be a good objection for a young person to respond, “please refrain from lecturing a young person on what young people do or do not do.” (and saying “You are not your age” probably doesn’t help.)
If you believe that letting gender issues interfere in one’s goals is a form of bias, then you should believe it’s precisely the sort of thing that we should be aware of, and your objection (if any) should have been that orange seems to be making a dubious claim, and he should have to provide experimental evidence to back it up.
This is blatant identity politics, and if I could downvote, I would.
Out of curiosity, do you mean that you have been adversely affected by objectification in your life, or adversely affected by instances of objectification on this site?
I meant the former. Instances of objectification that, if described, sound like what has been described in certain threads. I have most certainly not been affected by the discussions on this site itself. I am not so thin-skinned as to feel objectified by words on a screen.