Given how much more inconvenient staying silent is, I wouldn’t expect norms against talking to be easier to coordinate on.
I don’t think staying silent is inconvenient for most people. I would say that there’s even before COVID a general consensus that people talk to much by for example having phone calls in the train.
I think that there are enough media outlets that do the explaining if you would do that policy change.
You don’t have to convince the people who are annoyed by other people’s phone calls not to talk. You have to convince the people having the phone calls not to have them. And you have to convince the people silently watching in annoyance to speak up and tell people to get off the phone.
I don’t think I can give it a shot because I don’t have control over the policy. Many people don’t speak up because they think they are “not allowed”. Giving them social permission would like have an effect.
You can’t (directly) change government policy without getting elected, but you can work to shape social norms around you. You’re not in a universally recognized position of authority, but neither is the government, and you have earned some respect and know how to earn more from people around you.
When the pandemic was first kicking off and people weren’t yet taking it seriously, I was actively giving social permission to friends to prepare for a pandemic, and to medical professionals to start wearing N-95 masks at work. It was clear to me that no one wanted to be the weirdo “freaking out” and “over reacting”, and social permission was needed, so I tried to give it to anyone I thought I could reach, and to give them permission and motivation to extend the permission further. It’s hard to tell how much effect I really had, but it basically seemed to work on the scale I could manage. With people close to me, I *know* their attitude and behaviors changed as a direct result of talking to me. I know at least one doctor started taking the need for N-95 masks more seriously after talking to someone I persuaded, and I get the impression that many other healthcare workers were given a good nudge in that direction from other people that I talked to.
You make it sound like I’m not doing anything that’s stressful. If you look at my recent posts you find posts like https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/EAnLQLZeCreiFBHN8/how-do-the-ivermectin-meta-reviews-come-to-so-different where those people who think they are in a good position to read the studies come to the conclusion that they would take Ivermectin. I pick my fight over potentially hundreds of thousands dying because the authorities ignore the best meta-analysis.
You can’t (directly) change government policy without getting elected, but you can work to shape social norms around you.
That’s not true. There are many ways to change government policy without getting directly elected. With the access I had ten years ago I could have made a decent shot at getting neglegted ideas considered at the city level of Berlin.
I however put my political energy into community building and vote for the anti-aging party these days. I told fellow rationalists in the middle of meetup in February 2020 that what applied rationality is about is actually thinking yourself on a question like COVID-19 and getting prepared.
I’m not extroverted and pick different fights then you but it’s not like I’m just doing nothing. Given my resources I don’t think there’s a fight about people speaking in trains that I can effectively fight.
You make it sound like I’m not doing anything that’s stressful.
I’m not commenting on what fights you pick or how stressful they are, and wouldn’t be as presumptuous as to think I know which fights you should be picking.
Let’s back up a bit. Your original post asks:
How do you deal emotionally with [people cargo culting COVID-19 defense]? Do you become cynic?
And in a comment further up this chain you say:
I don’t see what’s so hard about saying: “Please only speak in public transport when necessary to reduce the chance of infecting other people”
This reads more like an expression of frustration about the lack of such messaging, rather than an expression of curiosity about why that message doesn’t get pushed by the government.
The answer to your question is that the way I emotionally deal with things like this is to try to notice when I’m getting frustrated and whether getting frustrated is actually going to get me what I want.
I don’t see expressions of indignation as a useful tool for improving governance (in this context, at least), so when I think forward about what’s it’s going to achieve, it kinda kills my motivation to be frustrated at the government. It does require accepting that the government kinda sucks relative to what I would like to see, but they do and I don’t see it changing on its own, so it seems worth accepting.
I’d much rather ask “Why” and be curious. When I do, the answer I get is “Oh yeah, it’s not actually trivial. Here are the difficulties involved”.
To the extent that it’s really difficult, it helps explain why the government doesn’t “just” do that, which helps to alleviate any sense that the government “shouldn’t be fucking up easy things”.
To the extent that I realize it’s hard for other people but easy (or just achievable) for me, I try to actually go do it and teach others how to do it—because that’s what needs to be done, and apparently there haven’t been enough people teaching and doing these things.
To the extent that it seems like it’d actually be easy for other people too and they’re still not doing it, then the thread of curiosity has to go deeper and you have to figure out what’s causing people to not do things they could and “should” do.
In short, frustration works best as a transient state, and as a sign that something isn’t working—much like tires slipping in a car would be. The way I emotionally handle this kind of thing, to the extent that I handle it well, is by noticing frustrations as signals that what I’m doing isn’t working, and redirecting that into curiosity about why things actually are the way they are and how I would like to respond.
That’s not true. There are many ways to change government policy without getting directly elected.
“Directly change”, not “directly elected”. You can certainly influence government policy without getting elected, but I would consider those to be “indirect”.
I’m not extroverted and pick different fights then you but it’s not like I’m just doing nothing. Given my resources I don’t think there’s a fight about people speaking in trains that I can effectively fight.
I’m not very extroverted either, so I absolutely get where you’re coming from. If that’s not a fight you can effectively fight, then it’s not a fight you can effectively fight. No pressure from me.
If you’re still feeling a conflict between “this should be easy” and “the government isn’t doing it”, then trying it yourself (or at least figuring out what you’d have to do in order to be effective) might help you figure out why other people aren’t doing it effectively either, and that tends to make things emotionally easier.
Maybe it’s because you feel like it should be easy for them but not for you?
I don’t think staying silent is inconvenient for most people. I would say that there’s even before COVID a general consensus that people talk to much by for example having phone calls in the train.
I think that there are enough media outlets that do the explaining if you would do that policy change.
You don’t have to convince the people who are annoyed by other people’s phone calls not to talk. You have to convince the people having the phone calls not to have them. And you have to convince the people silently watching in annoyance to speak up and tell people to get off the phone.
If you think it’s easy, give it a shot.
I don’t think I can give it a shot because I don’t have control over the policy. Many people don’t speak up because they think they are “not allowed”. Giving them social permission would like have an effect.
You can’t (directly) change government policy without getting elected, but you can work to shape social norms around you. You’re not in a universally recognized position of authority, but neither is the government, and you have earned some respect and know how to earn more from people around you.
When the pandemic was first kicking off and people weren’t yet taking it seriously, I was actively giving social permission to friends to prepare for a pandemic, and to medical professionals to start wearing N-95 masks at work. It was clear to me that no one wanted to be the weirdo “freaking out” and “over reacting”, and social permission was needed, so I tried to give it to anyone I thought I could reach, and to give them permission and motivation to extend the permission further. It’s hard to tell how much effect I really had, but it basically seemed to work on the scale I could manage. With people close to me, I *know* their attitude and behaviors changed as a direct result of talking to me. I know at least one doctor started taking the need for N-95 masks more seriously after talking to someone I persuaded, and I get the impression that many other healthcare workers were given a good nudge in that direction from other people that I talked to.
It just wasn’t trivial or stress free.
You make it sound like I’m not doing anything that’s stressful. If you look at my recent posts you find posts like https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/EAnLQLZeCreiFBHN8/how-do-the-ivermectin-meta-reviews-come-to-so-different where those people who think they are in a good position to read the studies come to the conclusion that they would take Ivermectin. I pick my fight over potentially hundreds of thousands dying because the authorities ignore the best meta-analysis.
That’s not true. There are many ways to change government policy without getting directly elected. With the access I had ten years ago I could have made a decent shot at getting neglegted ideas considered at the city level of Berlin.
I however put my political energy into community building and vote for the anti-aging party these days. I told fellow rationalists in the middle of meetup in February 2020 that what applied rationality is about is actually thinking yourself on a question like COVID-19 and getting prepared.
I’m not extroverted and pick different fights then you but it’s not like I’m just doing nothing. Given my resources I don’t think there’s a fight about people speaking in trains that I can effectively fight.
I’m not commenting on what fights you pick or how stressful they are, and wouldn’t be as presumptuous as to think I know which fights you should be picking.
Let’s back up a bit. Your original post asks:
And in a comment further up this chain you say:
This reads more like an expression of frustration about the lack of such messaging, rather than an expression of curiosity about why that message doesn’t get pushed by the government.
The answer to your question is that the way I emotionally deal with things like this is to try to notice when I’m getting frustrated and whether getting frustrated is actually going to get me what I want.
I don’t see expressions of indignation as a useful tool for improving governance (in this context, at least), so when I think forward about what’s it’s going to achieve, it kinda kills my motivation to be frustrated at the government. It does require accepting that the government kinda sucks relative to what I would like to see, but they do and I don’t see it changing on its own, so it seems worth accepting.
I’d much rather ask “Why” and be curious. When I do, the answer I get is “Oh yeah, it’s not actually trivial. Here are the difficulties involved”.
To the extent that it’s really difficult, it helps explain why the government doesn’t “just” do that, which helps to alleviate any sense that the government “shouldn’t be fucking up easy things”.
To the extent that I realize it’s hard for other people but easy (or just achievable) for me, I try to actually go do it and teach others how to do it—because that’s what needs to be done, and apparently there haven’t been enough people teaching and doing these things.
To the extent that it seems like it’d actually be easy for other people too and they’re still not doing it, then the thread of curiosity has to go deeper and you have to figure out what’s causing people to not do things they could and “should” do.
In short, frustration works best as a transient state, and as a sign that something isn’t working—much like tires slipping in a car would be. The way I emotionally handle this kind of thing, to the extent that I handle it well, is by noticing frustrations as signals that what I’m doing isn’t working, and redirecting that into curiosity about why things actually are the way they are and how I would like to respond.
“Directly change”, not “directly elected”. You can certainly influence government policy without getting elected, but I would consider those to be “indirect”.
I’m not very extroverted either, so I absolutely get where you’re coming from. If that’s not a fight you can effectively fight, then it’s not a fight you can effectively fight. No pressure from me.
If you’re still feeling a conflict between “this should be easy” and “the government isn’t doing it”, then trying it yourself (or at least figuring out what you’d have to do in order to be effective) might help you figure out why other people aren’t doing it effectively either, and that tends to make things emotionally easier.
Maybe it’s because you feel like it should be easy for them but not for you?