I think that you are selecting only a part of the story. For example, the official boogeyman here is the religion. (By the way, it happens to be associated with political right, at least today in USA.) Yet somehow, quotes from Chesterton often get many upvotes in “Rationality Quotes”. Does it mean that LW is secretly very sympathetic to religion? Or just that we are able to appreciate a decent quote even from people with whom we disagree on other topics? Could the second explanation possibly apply also to Heartiste or Moldbug? If you found a good rationality quote from Marx, Lenin, Stalin, Che Guevara, or Fidel Castro, would it also get upvotes? You can try, if you want.
With regard to political correctness, to me it seems that the current situation is unsatisfactory to both sides. Forbidden topics get mentioned, then they are verbally opposed and the discussion is stopped; later they are mentioned again, and then the discussion is stopped again; ad infinitum. This is what neither side wants. Some people would prefer to never see those topics reopened again. Other people would prefer to have an open discussion now and then, without being told to stop by people who don’t want to participate. Both sides take this as a proof that the other side is winning.
I think that you are selecting only a part of the story. For example, the official boogeyman here is the religion. (By the way, it happens to be associated with political right, at least today in USA.)
Definitely. But there are groups associated with the US political right that are non- or anti-religious. Objectivists are an obvious example. Unsurprisingly, these groups are overrepresented on the internet (though this is becoming less and less the case over the years). My impression is that LW has traditionally skewed toward this branch of the right.
Yet somehow, quotes from Chesterton often get many upvotes in “Rationality Quotes”. Does it mean that LW is secretly very sympathetic to religion? Or just that we are able to appreciate a decent quote even from people with whom we disagree on other topics? Could the second explanation possibly apply also to Heartiste or Moldbug?
Yes, but “possible” is a low bar. I do not believe it could entirely, or even in large part explain the frequency of references to Heartiste and Moldbug, or their reception. Chesterton is less famous and less respected than, say, George Orwell, but he is nonetheless a well-known and often quoted political writer in the English speaking world. Heartiste and Moldbug are not. They are so obscure that even having heard of them requires an unusual degree of familiarity with the fringes of the blogosphere.
Your description of political correctness makes it sound a lot like the “Politics is the Mindkiller” gag-rule. The Boogeyman version of political correctness is more like a hybrid of the Cheka and the Inquisition.
It is interesting to see Ayn Rand, Heartiste, and Chesterton as examples of “the right”. Makes me thinking what exactly does this concept mean; what exactly do these three have in common… which they don’t share with George Orwell.
Your description of political correctness makes it sound a lot like the “Politics is the Mindkiller” gag-rule.
To me it seems more like a “Blue Politics is the Mindkiller” rule.
It is interesting to see Ayn Rand, Heartiste, and Chesterton as examples of “the right”. Makes me thinking what exactly does this concept mean; what exactly do these three have in common… which they don’t share with George Orwell.
Not being avowed socialists. Anyway, the fact that “the right” is an incredibly broad and imprecise category doesn’t make the concept meaningless. It is empirically true that most politically aware Americans vote unerringly for one of two parties based on their identification with a broad and imprecisely defined category, even if you think they ought not to behave that way. A private citizen’s specific policy opinions are of far less practical significance than their identification with “the right” or “the left.”
Funny thing that we agree on this, because when I was writing it, “not being socialist” was the only thing that came to my mind—but I didn’t write it in hope that you will tell me something else that I missed. So perhaps there is nothing else.
But in the light of this explanation, your complaint seems to translate as “LW has traditionally been very sympathetic to some non-socialists”. Do you think that is a wrong thing? I feel like I’m making a strawman version of your arguments here.
In the lifetimes of Rand, Chesterton, and Orwell, socialist vs. anti-socialist was possibly the dividing line in the world of politics, so it’s not a minor difference. I think a slightly better translation might be “LW has traditionally been very sympathetic to non-religious anti-socialists”. I wouldn’t call it a wrong thing, because I don’t perceive this issue as having that much moral weight. I disagree on the facts with a particular assessment of site-wide political bias.
To give a flattering explanation for such activity (I cringe at the thought of being thought as far right) I can only think of the value placed by this community on tolerance of ideas. As Paul Graham says ” If a statement is false, that’s the worst thing you can say about it. You don’t need to say that it’s heretical. And if it isn’t false, it shouldn’t be suppressed.” You could interpret people quoting reactionaries like Moldbug as an attempt to shock people and show how tolerant they are by seriously entertaining the ideas. The closest analogue I can think of is Salvador Dali saying he admires Hitler in the movie “Surrealissimo”. Link to Dali here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SM9E9O9tEHs
For example, the official boogeyman here is the religion.
Really? I doubt I’m the only one who thinks that religious faith is a cheap target for critiques of irrationality. It is the example that people fall back on when they don’t have a better one, because it is so obvious.
But religion isn’t taken as much of a threat or a cause for outrage here. There are communities where it is — New Atheists, skeptics, and science educators concerned about creationism all come to mind.
Really? I doubt I’m the only one who thinks that religious faith is a cheap target for critiques of irrationality. It is the example that people fall back on when they don’t have a better one, because it is so obvious.
Astrology, alternative medicine, alien abductions, etc. are the usual targets attacked by entry-level skeptics. However, I do agree that in mainstream Western culture, religion is easy to attack.
I strongly disagree connotationally, but thank you for the explanation.
I think that you are selecting only a part of the story. For example, the official boogeyman here is the religion. (By the way, it happens to be associated with political right, at least today in USA.) Yet somehow, quotes from Chesterton often get many upvotes in “Rationality Quotes”. Does it mean that LW is secretly very sympathetic to religion? Or just that we are able to appreciate a decent quote even from people with whom we disagree on other topics? Could the second explanation possibly apply also to Heartiste or Moldbug? If you found a good rationality quote from Marx, Lenin, Stalin, Che Guevara, or Fidel Castro, would it also get upvotes? You can try, if you want.
With regard to political correctness, to me it seems that the current situation is unsatisfactory to both sides. Forbidden topics get mentioned, then they are verbally opposed and the discussion is stopped; later they are mentioned again, and then the discussion is stopped again; ad infinitum. This is what neither side wants. Some people would prefer to never see those topics reopened again. Other people would prefer to have an open discussion now and then, without being told to stop by people who don’t want to participate. Both sides take this as a proof that the other side is winning.
Definitely. But there are groups associated with the US political right that are non- or anti-religious. Objectivists are an obvious example. Unsurprisingly, these groups are overrepresented on the internet (though this is becoming less and less the case over the years). My impression is that LW has traditionally skewed toward this branch of the right.
Yes, but “possible” is a low bar. I do not believe it could entirely, or even in large part explain the frequency of references to Heartiste and Moldbug, or their reception. Chesterton is less famous and less respected than, say, George Orwell, but he is nonetheless a well-known and often quoted political writer in the English speaking world. Heartiste and Moldbug are not. They are so obscure that even having heard of them requires an unusual degree of familiarity with the fringes of the blogosphere.
Your description of political correctness makes it sound a lot like the “Politics is the Mindkiller” gag-rule. The Boogeyman version of political correctness is more like a hybrid of the Cheka and the Inquisition.
It is interesting to see Ayn Rand, Heartiste, and Chesterton as examples of “the right”. Makes me thinking what exactly does this concept mean; what exactly do these three have in common… which they don’t share with George Orwell.
To me it seems more like a “Blue Politics is the Mindkiller” rule.
Not being avowed socialists. Anyway, the fact that “the right” is an incredibly broad and imprecise category doesn’t make the concept meaningless. It is empirically true that most politically aware Americans vote unerringly for one of two parties based on their identification with a broad and imprecisely defined category, even if you think they ought not to behave that way. A private citizen’s specific policy opinions are of far less practical significance than their identification with “the right” or “the left.”
Funny thing that we agree on this, because when I was writing it, “not being socialist” was the only thing that came to my mind—but I didn’t write it in hope that you will tell me something else that I missed. So perhaps there is nothing else.
But in the light of this explanation, your complaint seems to translate as “LW has traditionally been very sympathetic to some non-socialists”. Do you think that is a wrong thing? I feel like I’m making a strawman version of your arguments here.
In the lifetimes of Rand, Chesterton, and Orwell, socialist vs. anti-socialist was possibly the dividing line in the world of politics, so it’s not a minor difference. I think a slightly better translation might be “LW has traditionally been very sympathetic to non-religious anti-socialists”. I wouldn’t call it a wrong thing, because I don’t perceive this issue as having that much moral weight. I disagree on the facts with a particular assessment of site-wide political bias.
To give a flattering explanation for such activity (I cringe at the thought of being thought as far right) I can only think of the value placed by this community on tolerance of ideas. As Paul Graham says ” If a statement is false, that’s the worst thing you can say about it. You don’t need to say that it’s heretical. And if it isn’t false, it shouldn’t be suppressed.” You could interpret people quoting reactionaries like Moldbug as an attempt to shock people and show how tolerant they are by seriously entertaining the ideas. The closest analogue I can think of is Salvador Dali saying he admires Hitler in the movie “Surrealissimo”. Link to Dali here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SM9E9O9tEHs
Really? I doubt I’m the only one who thinks that religious faith is a cheap target for critiques of irrationality. It is the example that people fall back on when they don’t have a better one, because it is so obvious.
But religion isn’t taken as much of a threat or a cause for outrage here. There are communities where it is — New Atheists, skeptics, and science educators concerned about creationism all come to mind.
Astrology, alternative medicine, alien abductions, etc. are the usual targets attacked by entry-level skeptics. However, I do agree that in mainstream Western culture, religion is easy to attack.