The conflation between Leverage and CFAR is made by the article. Most explicitly here...
Most of what was considered bad about the events at Leverage Research also happened around MIRI/CFAR, around the same time period (2017-2019).
...and generally, the article goes like “Zoe said that X happens in Leverage. A kinda similar thing happens in MIRI/CFAR, too.” The entire article (except for the intro) is structured as a point-by-point comparison with Zoe’s article.
Most commenters don’t buy it. But I imagine (perhaps incorrectly) that if a person unfamiliar with MIRI/CFAR and rationalist community in general would read the article, their impression would be that the two are pretty similar. This is why I consider it quite important to explain, very clearly, that they are not. This debate is public… and I expect it to be quote-mined (by RationalWiki and consequently Wikipedia).
I hope it is fine for me to try to investigate the nature of these group dynamics.
Sure, go ahead!
I will put forth that a silent minority has existed at CFAR, in the past, and that their experience was difficult and pretty traumatic for them. And I have strong reasons to believe they’re still ‘not over it’.
I would be happy to hear about their experience. Generally, the upvotes here are pretty much guaranteed. Specific accusations can be addressed—either by “actually, you got this part wrong” or by “oops, that was indeed a mistake, and here is what we are going to do to prevent this from happening again”.
(And sometimes by plain refusal, like “no, if you believe that you are possessed by demons and need to exorcise them, the rationalist community will not play along; but we can recommend a good therapist”. Similarly, if you like religion, superstition, magic, or drugs, please keep them at home, do not bring them to community activities, especially not in a way that might look like the community endorses this.)
Dear silent minority, if you are reading this, what can we do to allow you to speak about your experience? If you need anonymity, you can create a throwaway account. If you need a debate where LessWrong moderators cannot interfere, one of you can create an independent forum and advertize it here. If you are afraid of some, dunno, legal action or whatever, could you please post a proposal of a public commitment that MIRI/CFAR should take to allow you to speak freely?
(I might regret giving this advice but heck, just contact David Gerard from RationalWiki, he will be more than happy to hear and publish any dirt you have on MIRI/CFAR or anyone in the rationalist community.)
Any other proposals, what specifically could MIRI/CFAR do, or stop doing, to allow the silent minority to talk about their difficult and traumatic experience with the rationalist community and its organizations?
But I imagine (perhaps incorrectly) that if a person unfamiliar with MIRI/CFAR and rationalist community in general would read the article, their impression would be that the two are pretty similar.
I seem less concerned about this than you do. I don’t see the consequences of this being particularly bad, in expectation. It seems you believe it is important, and I hear that.
I would be happy to hear about their experience.
I’m frustrated by the way you are engaging in this… there’s a strangely blithe tone, and I am reading it as somewhat mean?
If you want to engage in a curious, non-judgy, and open conversation about the way this conversation is playing out, I could be up for that (in a different medium, maybe email or text or a phone call or something). Continuing on the object level like this is not working for me. You can DM me if you want… but obviously fine to ignore this also. If I know you IRL, it is a little more important to me, but if I don’t know you, then I’m fine with whatever happens. Well wishes.
The conflation between Leverage and CFAR is made by the article. Most explicitly here...
...and generally, the article goes like “Zoe said that X happens in Leverage. A kinda similar thing happens in MIRI/CFAR, too.” The entire article (except for the intro) is structured as a point-by-point comparison with Zoe’s article.
Most commenters don’t buy it. But I imagine (perhaps incorrectly) that if a person unfamiliar with MIRI/CFAR and rationalist community in general would read the article, their impression would be that the two are pretty similar. This is why I consider it quite important to explain, very clearly, that they are not. This debate is public… and I expect it to be quote-mined (by RationalWiki and consequently Wikipedia).
Sure, go ahead!
I would be happy to hear about their experience. Generally, the upvotes here are pretty much guaranteed. Specific accusations can be addressed—either by “actually, you got this part wrong” or by “oops, that was indeed a mistake, and here is what we are going to do to prevent this from happening again”.
(And sometimes by plain refusal, like “no, if you believe that you are possessed by demons and need to exorcise them, the rationalist community will not play along; but we can recommend a good therapist”. Similarly, if you like religion, superstition, magic, or drugs, please keep them at home, do not bring them to community activities, especially not in a way that might look like the community endorses this.)
Dear silent minority, if you are reading this, what can we do to allow you to speak about your experience? If you need anonymity, you can create a throwaway account. If you need a debate where LessWrong moderators cannot interfere, one of you can create an independent forum and advertize it here. If you are afraid of some, dunno, legal action or whatever, could you please post a proposal of a public commitment that MIRI/CFAR should take to allow you to speak freely?
(I might regret giving this advice but heck, just contact David Gerard from RationalWiki, he will be more than happy to hear and publish any dirt you have on MIRI/CFAR or anyone in the rationalist community.)
Any other proposals, what specifically could MIRI/CFAR do, or stop doing, to allow the silent minority to talk about their difficult and traumatic experience with the rationalist community and its organizations?
I seem less concerned about this than you do. I don’t see the consequences of this being particularly bad, in expectation. It seems you believe it is important, and I hear that.
I’m frustrated by the way you are engaging in this… there’s a strangely blithe tone, and I am reading it as somewhat mean?
If you want to engage in a curious, non-judgy, and open conversation about the way this conversation is playing out, I could be up for that (in a different medium, maybe email or text or a phone call or something). Continuing on the object level like this is not working for me. You can DM me if you want… but obviously fine to ignore this also. If I know you IRL, it is a little more important to me, but if I don’t know you, then I’m fine with whatever happens. Well wishes.