The case Zoe recounts of someone “having a psychotic break” sounds tame relative to what I’m familiar with. Someone can mentally explore strange metaphysics, e.g. a different relation to time or God, in a supportive social environment where people can offer them informational and material assistance, and help reality-check their ideas.
I think this is so well put and important.
I think that your fear of extreme rebuke from publishing this stuff is obviously reasonable when dealing with a group that believes itself to be world-saving. Any such org is going to need to proactively combat this fear if they want people to speak out. To me this is totally obvious.
Leverage was an especially legible organization, with a relatively clear interior/exterior distinction, while CFAR was less legible, having a set of events that different people were invited to, and many conversations including people not part of the organization. Hence, it is easier to attribute organizational responsibility at Leverage than around MIRI/CFAR. (This diffusion of responsibility, of course, doesn’t help when there are actual crises, mental health or otherwise.)
I feel that this is a very important point.
I want to hear more experiences like yours. That’s not “I want to hear them [before I draw conclusions].” I just want to hear them. I think this stuff should be known.
I think most of LW believes we should not risk ostracizing a group (with respect to the rest of the world) that might save the world, by publicizing a few broken eggs. If that’s the case, much discussion is completely moot. I personally kinda think that the world’s best shot is the one where MIRI/CFAR type orgs don’t break so many eggs. And I think transparency is the only realistic mechanism for course correction.
I think most of LW believes we should not risk ostracizing a group (with respect to the rest of the world) that might save the world, by publicizing a few broken eggs. If that’s the case, much discussion is completely moot. I personally kinda think that the world’s best shot is the one where MIRI/CFAR type orgs don’t break so many eggs. And I think transparency is the only realistic mechanism for course correction.
FWIW, I (former MIRI employee and current LW admin) saw a draft of this post before it was published, and told jessicata that I thought she should publish it, roughly because of that belief in transparency / ethical treatment of people.
Is a sign of most cults that they have a clear interior/exterior distinction. Whether or not someone is a scientologist is for example very clear. The fact that CFAR doesn’t have that is an indication against it being a cult.
Thank you SO MUCH for writing this.
I think this is so well put and important.
I think that your fear of extreme rebuke from publishing this stuff is obviously reasonable when dealing with a group that believes itself to be world-saving. Any such org is going to need to proactively combat this fear if they want people to speak out. To me this is totally obvious.
I feel that this is a very important point.
I want to hear more experiences like yours. That’s not “I want to hear them [before I draw conclusions].” I just want to hear them. I think this stuff should be known.
I think most of LW believes we should not risk ostracizing a group (with respect to the rest of the world) that might save the world, by publicizing a few broken eggs. If that’s the case, much discussion is completely moot. I personally kinda think that the world’s best shot is the one where MIRI/CFAR type orgs don’t break so many eggs. And I think transparency is the only realistic mechanism for course correction.
FWIW, I (former MIRI employee and current LW admin) saw a draft of this post before it was published, and told jessicata that I thought she should publish it, roughly because of that belief in transparency / ethical treatment of people.
Is a sign of most cults that they have a clear interior/exterior distinction. Whether or not someone is a scientologist is for example very clear. The fact that CFAR doesn’t have that is an indication against it being a cult.