On one hand, meditation—when done without all the baggage, hypothetically—seems like a useful tool. On the other hand, it simply invites all that baggage, because that is in the books, in the practicing communities, etc.
I think meditation should be treated similarly to psychedelics—even for meditators who don’t think of it in terms of anything supernatural, it can still have very large and unpredictable effects on the mind. The more extreme the style of meditation (e.g. silent retreats), the more likely this sort of thing is.
Any subgroups heavily using meditation seem likely to have the same problems as the ones Eliezer identified for psychedelics/woo/supernaturalism.
I have pointed out the risks of meditation and meditation-like practices before. The last time was on the Shoulder Advisors which does seem to fall on the boundary. I have experience with meditation and have been to extended silent meditation retreats with only positive results. Nonetheless, bad trips are possible—esp. without a supportive teacher and/or community.
But I wouldn’t make a norm against groups fostering meditation. Meditation depends on groups for support (though the same might be said about psychedelics). Meditation is also a known way to gain high levels of introspective awareness and to have many mental health benefits (many posts about that on LW I’m too lazy to find). The group norm about these things should be to require oversight by a Living Tradition of Knowledge in the relevant area (for meditation e.g. an established—maybe even Buddhist—meditation school).
Psychedelics, woo, and meditation are very separate stuff. They are often used in conjunction with each other due to popularity and the context some of these things are discussed along with each other. Buddhism has incorporated meditation into its woo while other religions have mostly focused on group based services in terms of talking about their woos.
I like how some commenters have grouped psychedelics and meditation separate of the woo stuff, but it was a bit surprising to me to see Eliezer dismissing psychedelics along with woo in the same statements. He probably hasn’t taken psychedelics before. Meditation is quite different as in it’s more of a state of mind as opposed to an altered mentality. With psychedelics there is a clear distinction between when you are tripping and when you aren’t tripping. With meditation, it’s not so clear when you are meditating and when you aren’t. Woo is just putting certain ideas into words, which has nothing to do with different mindset/mentalities.
Meditation is quite different as in it’s more of a state of mind as opposed to an altered mentality. With psychedelics there is a clear distinction between when you are tripping and when you aren’t tripping.
However, according to some, even meditation done properly can have negative effects, which would be similar to psychedelics but manifesting slower and through your own effort. Quoted from the book review:
Once you have meditated enough to reach the A&P Event, you’re stuck in the (very unpleasant) Dark Night Of The Soul until you can meditate your way out of it, which could take months or years.
I think meditation should be treated similarly to psychedelics—even for meditators who don’t think of it in terms of anything supernatural, it can still have very large and unpredictable effects on the mind. The more extreme the style of meditation (e.g. silent retreats), the more likely this sort of thing is.
Any subgroups heavily using meditation seem likely to have the same problems as the ones Eliezer identified for psychedelics/woo/supernaturalism.
I have pointed out the risks of meditation and meditation-like practices before. The last time was on the Shoulder Advisors which does seem to fall on the boundary. I have experience with meditation and have been to extended silent meditation retreats with only positive results. Nonetheless, bad trips are possible—esp. without a supportive teacher and/or community.
But I wouldn’t make a norm against groups fostering meditation. Meditation depends on groups for support (though the same might be said about psychedelics). Meditation is also a known way to gain high levels of introspective awareness and to have many mental health benefits (many posts about that on LW I’m too lazy to find). The group norm about these things should be to require oversight by a Living Tradition of Knowledge in the relevant area (for meditation e.g. an established—maybe even Buddhist—meditation school).
Psychedelics, woo, and meditation are very separate stuff. They are often used in conjunction with each other due to popularity and the context some of these things are discussed along with each other. Buddhism has incorporated meditation into its woo while other religions have mostly focused on group based services in terms of talking about their woos.
I like how some commenters have grouped psychedelics and meditation separate of the woo stuff, but it was a bit surprising to me to see Eliezer dismissing psychedelics along with woo in the same statements. He probably hasn’t taken psychedelics before. Meditation is quite different as in it’s more of a state of mind as opposed to an altered mentality. With psychedelics there is a clear distinction between when you are tripping and when you aren’t tripping. With meditation, it’s not so clear when you are meditating and when you aren’t. Woo is just putting certain ideas into words, which has nothing to do with different mindset/mentalities.
However, according to some, even meditation done properly can have negative effects, which would be similar to psychedelics but manifesting slower and through your own effort. Quoted from the book review:
I don’t think I was advocating for either. I apologize if I came off as saying people should try psychedelics and meditation.