From my perspective, the commenters here have, with very few exceptions, performed admirably at not turning this thread into a factionalized battleground. (Note that my use of “admirably” here is only in relation to my already-high expectations for LW users; in the context of the broader Internet a more proper adverb might be “incredibly”.) You may note, for example, that prior to my comment, Ilya’s comment had not received a single response, indicating that no one found his bait worth biting on. Given this, I was (and remain) quite confident that my statement that Ilya “would not much be missed” would not have the factionalizing effect you imply it might have had; and indeed the resulting comments would seem to favor my prediction over yours.
Furthermore, since this observation is something you cannot possibly have missed prior to writing your comment, it seems to me quite likely that you wrote what you did for rhetorical effect; but I confess myself unclear on what, precisely, you intended to suggest with your rhetorical approach here. A surface-level reading would seem to suggest an interpretation along the lines that what I wrote and what Ilya wrote were equally bad; is this in fact what you meant? If so, I find that claim… implausible, to say the least; you may note that nowhere in my comment, for example, did I refer to Ilya as a “cult space monkey”, or attempt to draw conclusions about his character based on a televised American cartoon.
To the extent that you mean to suggest that the contents of these two comments are literally equivalent, I would submit that you need to provide (much) more argument in favor of that conclusion than you did. To the extent that you meant to equate them not in degree, but in kind… well, I suppose I can grant that to some extent; certainly I did not intend my statement that Ilya “would not much be missed” in a friendly way. But even if that’s so, I think you can agree that I’m being stunningly generous with this interpretation; without the benefit of such generosity I think it’s fair to say that your comment erases such distinctions quite badly. (This tendency to erase distinctions is a pattern I have observed from you in other threads as well, to be clear; though in your case I didn’t think your engagement style was quite bad enough to be worth calling out explicitly, at least until you basically elicited it with your reply here.)
Re-reading my comments in this thread, I think there’s a topic that’s worth treating more deeply here, without that treatment being contained within (and fettered to) a confrontational context. To be clear, I still endorse my above reply to hg00, whose comment I continue to think was bad and deserved to be called out—but I also feel there’s an analysis here that can’t be conducted while simultaneously responding to someone else’s (conflict-oriented) comment.
I’ll start with this bit in particular, since I suspect this is the part that hg00 (and others who share their concerns) would consider most directly relevant:
I ask, not as a thinly veiled attempt to suggest that Ilya be banned (though I will opine that, were he to be banned, he would not much be missed)
I think it’s entirely fair to say that the inclusion of the parenthetical clause was unnecessary, in the sense that my point could have been made just as well without it, and (as long as we’re on the topic) it was moreover likely a slight-to-moderate impediment to the advancement of my broader goal (initiating a discussion of LW’s moderation policy), since it diverts the readers’ mental cycles in an unproductive direction. It’s also fair to say that, at the time of writing my initial comment, such considerations largely did not factor into my decision to include said clause.
What did factor into my decision? I think there’s a part I endorse and a part I don’t (which is why, on the whole, I don’t think I can say I fully regret writing what I did). The part I don’t endorse is pretty simple, so I’ll start with that: it was a sense of tit-for-that, of defecting-to-punish-defection, where “defection” in this case is intended to indicate [something like] making an obviously adversarial remark with no purpose other than to be adversarial. I don’t endorse this because it’s negative-sum: repeated iterations of this action burn the commons, without trading it for anything I’d consider worthwhile.
The part I do endorse, on the other hand, is something like… I’d call it “stating the obvious”? “Identifying what others refuse to identify”? I don’t quite like that second phrase, because it makes the whole thing sound weirdly heroic and messianic, in a way that I really don’t think it is; my view is that I’d like this behavior to become more common, and that second phrase kind of construes it as the exact opposite of that. But still, I think it captures something important, which is… like...
What does being a cult space monkey feel like from the inside?
This entire depressing thread is reminding me a little of how long it took folks who watch Rick and Morty to realize Rick is an awful abusive person, because he’s the show’s main character, and isn’t “coded” as a villain.
I think this comment is terrible. Full-stop. Like, it seems uniquely terrible to me, in a way that the supermajority of comments on LessWrong are not. There’s no attempt at all to disguise this as something resembling productive criticism; it transparently and nakedly presents itself as exactly what it is: a series of ad hominem attacks with no merit whatsoever. I think, given that I’m going to talk about this at all, it would feel almost… dishonest? … to not include a part somewhere that just outright states, “Yes, this is terrible. It’s not just your imagination; I’m not going to dance around it or awkwardly imply that I dislike it less than I do; it is simply and straightforwardly terrible, and I would not miss it if it were gone.”
The alternative, it seems to me, is that some minority of commenters (including Ilya) continue to post terrible comments, and somehow despite how manifestly terrible they are it never becomes common knowledge how terrible they are (because no one ever outright says it—just downvotes and moves on, or worse, replies politely and inquisitively and in a way that never at all suggests that posting comments like this on the regular isn’t okay), and it just keeps happening over and over, death-by-a-thousand-cuts style, and meanwhile I’m standing here on the sidelines shouting HEY Y’ALL WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU DOING--
Anyway. I don’t regret that part. I think that if a commenter (especially a well-respected one! especially a credentialed one, especially one with “celebrity” status) starts to post comments that, if they came from a new account with zero karma, would get them a moderator warning almost immediately, and somehow manage to continue doing so for years on end without so much as a single comment asking “hey what’s going on here is this okay?”, it is absolutely predictable that there will be people looking at the situation and saying to themselves, “hmm, I wonder if that kind of behavior just… passes, around these parts?” And if someone (not necessarily me, I’d have been thrilled if it wasn’t me) were to finally step in and call attention to the thing, and if in the process they included a rather impolitely worded remark to the effect that they “wouldn’t miss you if you were gone”… I can’t bring myself to entirely disendorse that behavior.
I’m standing here on the sidelines shouting HEY Y’ALL WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU DOING--
Curiously, “HEY Y’ALL WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU DOING” is how I read Ilya’s comment.
I’m not interested in the c-word, but the more this goes on, the more wary I am of having anything to do with MIRI, CFAR, Leverage 2.0, and any related organisations, as well as some of the individuals spoken of. Not that I ever have done, but until now that was only because I’m on another continent, and I don’t do community anyway.
And I think it’s also reasonable, given the above context, to squint suspiciously at anyone who looks at the two initial comments in question in sequence, and then says something like this:
From my perspective, you’re now at about Ilya’s level, but with a lot more words
(I already took this sentiment apart in the grandparent, of course, but the additional context should make it clear why I laser-focused on that part of the comment. And of course, it’s also helpful to have the same sentiment expressed without the cloaking of a snide, adversarial framing.)
It’s not obvious to me that Ilya meant his comment as aggressively as you took it. We’re all primates and it can be useful to be reminded of that, even if we’re primates that go to space sometimes. Asking yourself “would I be responding similar to how I’m responding now if I was, in fact, in a cult” seems potentially useful. It’s also worth remembering that people coded as good aren’t always good.
Your comment was less crass than Ilya’s, but it felt like you were slipping “we all agree my opponent is a clear norm violator” into a larger argument without providing any supporting evidence. I was triggered by a perception of manipulativeness and aggressive conformism, which put me in a more factionalistic mindset.
So, there are a number of things I want to say to this. It might first be meaningful to establish the following, however:
Asking yourself “would I be responding similar to how I’m responding now if I was, in fact, in a cult” seems potentially useful.
I don’t think I’m in a cult. (Separately, I don’t think the MIRI/CFAR associated social circle is a cult.)
The reason I include the qualifier “separately” is because, in my case, these are very much two separate claims: I do not live in the Bay Area or any other rationalist community “hot spot”, I have had (to my knowledge) no physical contact with any member of the rationalist community, “core” or otherwise, and the surrounding social fabric I’m embedded in is about as far from cult-like as you can get. So even if MIRI/CFAR were a cult—that is to say, even if the second of my claims were false—they could not have transmitted their “cultishness” to me except by means of writing stuff on the Internet… and at that point I very much dispute that “cultishness” is even the right framing to be using.
(Yes, memes are proof that ideas can propagate without a supporting social fabric. However, I have seen little evidence that the idea cluster associated with MIRI is particularly “memetically fit”, except in the entirely ordinary sense that the ideas they peddle seemingly make sense to quite a lot of people who aren’t physically part of the rationalist community—which you would also observe if they were just, y’know, true.)
There’s more I want to say about your framing; I think it misses the mark in several other ways, the most prominent of which is the amount of emphasis you give to the meta level as opposed to the object level (and in fact the comment I just linked is also downthread of a reply to you). But I think it’s best to circumscribe different topics of discussion to different threads, so if you have anything to say about that topic, I’d ask that you reply to the linked comment instead of this one.
As far as the topic of this comment thread is concerned… no, I don’t think your impression was mistaken. That is to say, the thing you sensed from me, which you described as
“we all agree my opponent is a clear norm violator”
is something I intended to convey with my comment… well, not really the part about Ilya being my “opponent” (and I’m also not sure what you mean by “slipping [it] into a larger argument”, mind you)--but the part about norm violations is absolutely a correct reading of my intentions. I think (and continue to think) that Ilya’s comment was in blatant violation of a bunch of norms, and I maintain that calling it out was the right thing to do. There is no plausible interpretation I can imagine under which calling somebody a “cult space monkey” can remotely be construed as non-norm-violating; to the extent that you disagree with this, I think you are simply, straightforwardly incorrect.
(It sounds like you view statements like the above as an expression of “aggressive conformism”. I could go on about how I disagree with that, but instead I’ll simply note that under a slight swap of priors, one could easily make the argument that it was the original comment by Ilya that’s an example of “aggressive conformism”. And yet I note that for some reason your perception of aggressive conformism was only triggered in response to a comment attacking a position with which you happen to agree, rather than by the initial comment itself. I think it’s quite fair to call this a worrisome flag—by your own standards, no less.)
To be absolutely clear: it sounds as though you are under the impression that I criticized Ilya’s comment because he called MIRI/CFAR a cult, and since I disagreed with that, I tried to label him a “norm violator” in order to invalidate his assertion. (This would make sense of your use of the word “opponent”, and also nails down the “larger argument” I presume you presumed I was insinuating.) This is not the case. I criticized Ilya’s comment because (not to put too fine a point on it) it was a fucking terrible comment, and because I don’t visit LW so I can see people compare each other to characters from Rick and Morty (or call people fascists, or accuse people of health fraud, or whatever the hell this is). Contrary to what you may be inclined to think, not everyone here selectively levels criticism at things they disagree with.
Separately, I don’t think the MIRI/CFAR associated social circle is a cult.
Nor do I. (I’ve donated money to at least one of those organizations.) [Edit: I think they might be too tribal for their own good—many groups are—but the word “cult” seems too strong.]
I do think MIRI/CFAR is to some degree an “internet tribe”. You’ve probably noticed that those can be pathological.
Anyway, you’re writing a lot of words here. There’s plenty of space to propose or cite a specific norm, explain why you think it’s a generally good norm, and explain why Ilya violated it. I think if you did that, and left off the rest of the rhetoric, it would read as more transparent and less manipulative to me. A norm against “people [comparing] each other to characters from Rick and Morty” seems suspiciously specific to this case (and also not necessarily a great norm in general).
Basically I’m getting more of an “ostracize him!” vibe than a “how can we keep the garden clean?” vibe—you were pretending to do the second one in your earlier comment, but I think the cursing here makes it clear that your true intention is more like the first. I don’t like mob justice, even if the person is guilty. (BTW, proposing specific norms also helps keep you honest, e.g. if your proposed norm was “don’t be crass”, cursing would violate that norm.)
(It sounds like you view statements like the above as an expression of “aggressive conformism”. I could go on about how I disagree with that, but instead I’ll simply note that under a slight swap of priors, one could easily make the argument that it was the original comment by Ilya that’s an example of “aggressive conformism”. And yet I note that for some reason your perception of aggressive conformism was only triggered in response to a comment attacking a position with which you happen to agree, rather than by the initial comment itself. I think it’s quite fair to call this a worrisome flag—by your own standards, no less.)
Ilya’s position is not one I agree with.
I’m annoyed by aggressive conformism wherever I see it. When it comes to MIRI/CFAR, my instinct is to defend them in venues where everyone criticizes them, and criticize them in venues where everyone defends them.
I’ll let you have the last word in this thread. Hopefully that will cut down on unwanted meta-level discussion.
Basically I’m getting more of an “ostracize him!” vibe than a “how can we keep the garden clean?” vibe—you were pretending to do the second one in your earlier comment, but I think the cursing here makes it clear that your true intention is more like the first.
I didn’t respond to this earlier, but I think I’d also like to flag here that I don’t appreciate this (inaccurate) attempt to impute my intentions. I will state it outright: your reading of my intention is incorrect, and also seems to me to be based on a very flimsy reasoning process.
(To expand on that last part: I don’t believe “cursing” acts a valid item of evidence in favor of any assertion in particular. Certainly I intended my words to have a certain rhetorical effect there, else I would not have chosen the words I did—but the part where you immediately draw from that some conclusion about my “true intention” seems to me invalid, both in general and in this specific case.)
META: I debated with myself for a while about whether to post the parent comment, and—if I posted it—whether to adjust the wording to come across as less sharp. In the end, I judged that posting the comment I did was the best option given the circumstances, but I’d like to offer some further commentary on my thought process here.
From my perspective, conversations that occur under an adversarial framing are (mostly) not productive, and it was (and remains) quite obvious to me that my reply above is largely adversarial. I mostly view this as an inescapable cost of replying in this case; when someone alleges that your comments have some nefarious intention behind them, the adversarial framing is pretty much baked in, and if you want to defuse that framing there’s really no way to do it outside of ignoring the allegation entirely… which I did contemplate doing. (Which is why my other, earlier reply was was short, and addressed only what I saw as the main concern.)
I ultimately decided against remaining silent here because I judged that the impact of allowing such an allegation to stand would be to weaken the impact of all of my other comments in this subthread, including ones that make points I think are important. I am nonetheless saddened that there is no way to address such a claim without shifting the conversation at least somewhat back towards the adversarial frame, and thusly I am annoyed and frustrated that such a conversational move was rendered necessary. (If anyone has suggestions for how to better navigate this tradeoff in the future, I am open to hearing them.)
Separately: I suspect a large part of the adversarial interpretation here in fact arises directly from the role of the person posting the comment. When I wrote the parent comment, I attempted to include some neutral observations on the reasoning of the grandparent (e.g. “I don’t believe ‘cursing’ acts as a valid item of evidence in favor of any assertion in particular”). And I’m quite confident that, had this remark been made by a third party, it would be interpreted for the most part as a neutral observation. But I anticipate that, because the remark in question was made by me (the person against whom the initial allegation was leveled), it will acquire a subtext that it would not otherwise possess.
I currently also see this as a mostly unavoidable consequence of the framing here. I don’t see a good way to circumvent this, but at the same time I find myself rather keenly aware (and, if I’m to be honest, slightly resentful) of the way in which this prevents otherwise ordinary commentary from having the same effect it normally would. The net effect of this dynamic, I expect, is to discourage people from posting “neutral observations” in situations where they might reasonably expect that those observations will come across as adversarially coded.
Again: I don’t have a good model of how to mitigate this effect (ideally while retaining the benefits of the heuristic in question); it’s plausible to me that this may be intractable as long as we’re dealing with humans. It nonetheless feels particularly salient to me at the moment, so I think I want to draw attention to it.
When I wrote the parent comment, I attempted to include some neutral observations on the reasoning of the grandparent (e.g. “I don’t believe ‘cursing’ acts as a valid item of evidence in favor of any assertion in particular”). And I’m quite confident that, had this remark been made by a third party, it would be interpreted for the most part as a neutral observation.
I’m happy to endorse the content of the parent comment. I’m a fan of (constructive, gentle-but-firm) pushback against people making large assertions about the contents of other people’s thoughts and intentions, without much more substantial evidence.
Anyway, you’re writing a lot of words here. There’s plenty of space to propose or cite a specific norm, explain why you think it’s a generally good norm, and explain why Ilya violated it. I think if you did that, and left off the rest of the rhetoric, it would read as more transparent and less manipulative to me. A norm against “people [comparing] each other to characters from Rick and Morty” seems suspiciously specific to this case (and also not necessarily a great norm in general).
Okay, sure. I think LW should (and for the most part, does) have a norm against personal attacks. I think LW should also (and again, for the most part, does) have a norm against low-effort sniping. I think Ilya’s comment[ing pattern] runs afoul of both of these norms (and does so rather obviously to boot), neither of which (I claim) is “suspiciously specific” in the way you describe.
From my perspective, the commenters here have, with very few exceptions, performed admirably at not turning this thread into a factionalized battleground. (Note that my use of “admirably” here is only in relation to my already-high expectations for LW users; in the context of the broader Internet a more proper adverb might be “incredibly”.) You may note, for example, that prior to my comment, Ilya’s comment had not received a single response, indicating that no one found his bait worth biting on. Given this, I was (and remain) quite confident that my statement that Ilya “would not much be missed” would not have the factionalizing effect you imply it might have had; and indeed the resulting comments would seem to favor my prediction over yours.
Furthermore, since this observation is something you cannot possibly have missed prior to writing your comment, it seems to me quite likely that you wrote what you did for rhetorical effect; but I confess myself unclear on what, precisely, you intended to suggest with your rhetorical approach here. A surface-level reading would seem to suggest an interpretation along the lines that what I wrote and what Ilya wrote were equally bad; is this in fact what you meant? If so, I find that claim… implausible, to say the least; you may note that nowhere in my comment, for example, did I refer to Ilya as a “cult space monkey”, or attempt to draw conclusions about his character based on a televised American cartoon.
To the extent that you mean to suggest that the contents of these two comments are literally equivalent, I would submit that you need to provide (much) more argument in favor of that conclusion than you did. To the extent that you meant to equate them not in degree, but in kind… well, I suppose I can grant that to some extent; certainly I did not intend my statement that Ilya “would not much be missed” in a friendly way. But even if that’s so, I think you can agree that I’m being stunningly generous with this interpretation; without the benefit of such generosity I think it’s fair to say that your comment erases such distinctions quite badly. (This tendency to erase distinctions is a pattern I have observed from you in other threads as well, to be clear; though in your case I didn’t think your engagement style was quite bad enough to be worth calling out explicitly, at least until you basically elicited it with your reply here.)
Re-reading my comments in this thread, I think there’s a topic that’s worth treating more deeply here, without that treatment being contained within (and fettered to) a confrontational context. To be clear, I still endorse my above reply to hg00, whose comment I continue to think was bad and deserved to be called out—but I also feel there’s an analysis here that can’t be conducted while simultaneously responding to someone else’s (conflict-oriented) comment.
I’ll start with this bit in particular, since I suspect this is the part that hg00 (and others who share their concerns) would consider most directly relevant:
I think it’s entirely fair to say that the inclusion of the parenthetical clause was unnecessary, in the sense that my point could have been made just as well without it, and (as long as we’re on the topic) it was moreover likely a slight-to-moderate impediment to the advancement of my broader goal (initiating a discussion of LW’s moderation policy), since it diverts the readers’ mental cycles in an unproductive direction. It’s also fair to say that, at the time of writing my initial comment, such considerations largely did not factor into my decision to include said clause.
What did factor into my decision? I think there’s a part I endorse and a part I don’t (which is why, on the whole, I don’t think I can say I fully regret writing what I did). The part I don’t endorse is pretty simple, so I’ll start with that: it was a sense of tit-for-that, of defecting-to-punish-defection, where “defection” in this case is intended to indicate [something like] making an obviously adversarial remark with no purpose other than to be adversarial. I don’t endorse this because it’s negative-sum: repeated iterations of this action burn the commons, without trading it for anything I’d consider worthwhile.
The part I do endorse, on the other hand, is something like… I’d call it “stating the obvious”? “Identifying what others refuse to identify”? I don’t quite like that second phrase, because it makes the whole thing sound weirdly heroic and messianic, in a way that I really don’t think it is; my view is that I’d like this behavior to become more common, and that second phrase kind of construes it as the exact opposite of that. But still, I think it captures something important, which is… like...
I think this comment is terrible. Full-stop. Like, it seems uniquely terrible to me, in a way that the supermajority of comments on LessWrong are not. There’s no attempt at all to disguise this as something resembling productive criticism; it transparently and nakedly presents itself as exactly what it is: a series of ad hominem attacks with no merit whatsoever. I think, given that I’m going to talk about this at all, it would feel almost… dishonest? … to not include a part somewhere that just outright states, “Yes, this is terrible. It’s not just your imagination; I’m not going to dance around it or awkwardly imply that I dislike it less than I do; it is simply and straightforwardly terrible, and I would not miss it if it were gone.”
The alternative, it seems to me, is that some minority of commenters (including Ilya) continue to post terrible comments, and somehow despite how manifestly terrible they are it never becomes common knowledge how terrible they are (because no one ever outright says it—just downvotes and moves on, or worse, replies politely and inquisitively and in a way that never at all suggests that posting comments like this on the regular isn’t okay), and it just keeps happening over and over, death-by-a-thousand-cuts style, and meanwhile I’m standing here on the sidelines shouting HEY Y’ALL WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU DOING--
Anyway. I don’t regret that part. I think that if a commenter (especially a well-respected one! especially a credentialed one, especially one with “celebrity” status) starts to post comments that, if they came from a new account with zero karma, would get them a moderator warning almost immediately, and somehow manage to continue doing so for years on end without so much as a single comment asking “hey what’s going on here is this okay?”, it is absolutely predictable that there will be people looking at the situation and saying to themselves, “hmm, I wonder if that kind of behavior just… passes, around these parts?” And if someone (not necessarily me, I’d have been thrilled if it wasn’t me) were to finally step in and call attention to the thing, and if in the process they included a rather impolitely worded remark to the effect that they “wouldn’t miss you if you were gone”… I can’t bring myself to entirely disendorse that behavior.
Curiously, “HEY Y’ALL WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU DOING” is how I read Ilya’s comment.
I’m not interested in the c-word, but the more this goes on, the more wary I am of having anything to do with MIRI, CFAR, Leverage 2.0, and any related organisations, as well as some of the individuals spoken of. Not that I ever have done, but until now that was only because I’m on another continent, and I don’t do community anyway.
And I think it’s also reasonable, given the above context, to squint suspiciously at anyone who looks at the two initial comments in question in sequence, and then says something like this:
(I already took this sentiment apart in the grandparent, of course, but the additional context should make it clear why I laser-focused on that part of the comment. And of course, it’s also helpful to have the same sentiment expressed without the cloaking of a snide, adversarial framing.)
It’s not obvious to me that Ilya meant his comment as aggressively as you took it. We’re all primates and it can be useful to be reminded of that, even if we’re primates that go to space sometimes. Asking yourself “would I be responding similar to how I’m responding now if I was, in fact, in a cult” seems potentially useful. It’s also worth remembering that people coded as good aren’t always good.
Your comment was less crass than Ilya’s, but it felt like you were slipping “we all agree my opponent is a clear norm violator” into a larger argument without providing any supporting evidence. I was triggered by a perception of manipulativeness and aggressive conformism, which put me in a more factionalistic mindset.
So, there are a number of things I want to say to this. It might first be meaningful to establish the following, however:
I don’t think I’m in a cult. (Separately, I don’t think the MIRI/CFAR associated social circle is a cult.)
The reason I include the qualifier “separately” is because, in my case, these are very much two separate claims: I do not live in the Bay Area or any other rationalist community “hot spot”, I have had (to my knowledge) no physical contact with any member of the rationalist community, “core” or otherwise, and the surrounding social fabric I’m embedded in is about as far from cult-like as you can get. So even if MIRI/CFAR were a cult—that is to say, even if the second of my claims were false—they could not have transmitted their “cultishness” to me except by means of writing stuff on the Internet… and at that point I very much dispute that “cultishness” is even the right framing to be using.
(Yes, memes are proof that ideas can propagate without a supporting social fabric. However, I have seen little evidence that the idea cluster associated with MIRI is particularly “memetically fit”, except in the entirely ordinary sense that the ideas they peddle seemingly make sense to quite a lot of people who aren’t physically part of the rationalist community—which you would also observe if they were just, y’know, true.)
There’s more I want to say about your framing; I think it misses the mark in several other ways, the most prominent of which is the amount of emphasis you give to the meta level as opposed to the object level (and in fact the comment I just linked is also downthread of a reply to you). But I think it’s best to circumscribe different topics of discussion to different threads, so if you have anything to say about that topic, I’d ask that you reply to the linked comment instead of this one.
As far as the topic of this comment thread is concerned… no, I don’t think your impression was mistaken. That is to say, the thing you sensed from me, which you described as
is something I intended to convey with my comment… well, not really the part about Ilya being my “opponent” (and I’m also not sure what you mean by “slipping [it] into a larger argument”, mind you)--but the part about norm violations is absolutely a correct reading of my intentions. I think (and continue to think) that Ilya’s comment was in blatant violation of a bunch of norms, and I maintain that calling it out was the right thing to do. There is no plausible interpretation I can imagine under which calling somebody a “cult space monkey” can remotely be construed as non-norm-violating; to the extent that you disagree with this, I think you are simply, straightforwardly incorrect.
(It sounds like you view statements like the above as an expression of “aggressive conformism”. I could go on about how I disagree with that, but instead I’ll simply note that under a slight swap of priors, one could easily make the argument that it was the original comment by Ilya that’s an example of “aggressive conformism”. And yet I note that for some reason your perception of aggressive conformism was only triggered in response to a comment attacking a position with which you happen to agree, rather than by the initial comment itself. I think it’s quite fair to call this a worrisome flag—by your own standards, no less.)
To be absolutely clear: it sounds as though you are under the impression that I criticized Ilya’s comment because he called MIRI/CFAR a cult, and since I disagreed with that, I tried to label him a “norm violator” in order to invalidate his assertion. (This would make sense of your use of the word “opponent”, and also nails down the “larger argument” I presume you presumed I was insinuating.) This is not the case. I criticized Ilya’s comment because (not to put too fine a point on it) it was a fucking terrible comment, and because I don’t visit LW so I can see people compare each other to characters from Rick and Morty (or call people fascists, or accuse people of health fraud, or whatever the hell this is). Contrary to what you may be inclined to think, not everyone here selectively levels criticism at things they disagree with.
Nor do I. (I’ve donated money to at least one of those organizations.) [Edit: I think they might be too tribal for their own good—many groups are—but the word “cult” seems too strong.]
I do think MIRI/CFAR is to some degree an “internet tribe”. You’ve probably noticed that those can be pathological.
Anyway, you’re writing a lot of words here. There’s plenty of space to propose or cite a specific norm, explain why you think it’s a generally good norm, and explain why Ilya violated it. I think if you did that, and left off the rest of the rhetoric, it would read as more transparent and less manipulative to me. A norm against “people [comparing] each other to characters from Rick and Morty” seems suspiciously specific to this case (and also not necessarily a great norm in general).
Basically I’m getting more of an “ostracize him!” vibe than a “how can we keep the garden clean?” vibe—you were pretending to do the second one in your earlier comment, but I think the cursing here makes it clear that your true intention is more like the first. I don’t like mob justice, even if the person is guilty. (BTW, proposing specific norms also helps keep you honest, e.g. if your proposed norm was “don’t be crass”, cursing would violate that norm.)
Ilya’s position is not one I agree with.
I’m annoyed by aggressive conformism wherever I see it. When it comes to MIRI/CFAR, my instinct is to defend them in venues where everyone criticizes them, and criticize them in venues where everyone defends them.
I’ll let you have the last word in this thread. Hopefully that will cut down on unwanted meta-level discussion.
I didn’t respond to this earlier, but I think I’d also like to flag here that I don’t appreciate this (inaccurate) attempt to impute my intentions. I will state it outright: your reading of my intention is incorrect, and also seems to me to be based on a very flimsy reasoning process.
(To expand on that last part: I don’t believe “cursing” acts a valid item of evidence in favor of any assertion in particular. Certainly I intended my words to have a certain rhetorical effect there, else I would not have chosen the words I did—but the part where you immediately draw from that some conclusion about my “true intention” seems to me invalid, both in general and in this specific case.)
META: I debated with myself for a while about whether to post the parent comment, and—if I posted it—whether to adjust the wording to come across as less sharp. In the end, I judged that posting the comment I did was the best option given the circumstances, but I’d like to offer some further commentary on my thought process here.
From my perspective, conversations that occur under an adversarial framing are (mostly) not productive, and it was (and remains) quite obvious to me that my reply above is largely adversarial. I mostly view this as an inescapable cost of replying in this case; when someone alleges that your comments have some nefarious intention behind them, the adversarial framing is pretty much baked in, and if you want to defuse that framing there’s really no way to do it outside of ignoring the allegation entirely… which I did contemplate doing. (Which is why my other, earlier reply was was short, and addressed only what I saw as the main concern.)
I ultimately decided against remaining silent here because I judged that the impact of allowing such an allegation to stand would be to weaken the impact of all of my other comments in this subthread, including ones that make points I think are important. I am nonetheless saddened that there is no way to address such a claim without shifting the conversation at least somewhat back towards the adversarial frame, and thusly I am annoyed and frustrated that such a conversational move was rendered necessary. (If anyone has suggestions for how to better navigate this tradeoff in the future, I am open to hearing them.)
Separately: I suspect a large part of the adversarial interpretation here in fact arises directly from the role of the person posting the comment. When I wrote the parent comment, I attempted to include some neutral observations on the reasoning of the grandparent (e.g. “I don’t believe ‘cursing’ acts as a valid item of evidence in favor of any assertion in particular”). And I’m quite confident that, had this remark been made by a third party, it would be interpreted for the most part as a neutral observation. But I anticipate that, because the remark in question was made by me (the person against whom the initial allegation was leveled), it will acquire a subtext that it would not otherwise possess.
I currently also see this as a mostly unavoidable consequence of the framing here. I don’t see a good way to circumvent this, but at the same time I find myself rather keenly aware (and, if I’m to be honest, slightly resentful) of the way in which this prevents otherwise ordinary commentary from having the same effect it normally would. The net effect of this dynamic, I expect, is to discourage people from posting “neutral observations” in situations where they might reasonably expect that those observations will come across as adversarially coded.
Again: I don’t have a good model of how to mitigate this effect (ideally while retaining the benefits of the heuristic in question); it’s plausible to me that this may be intractable as long as we’re dealing with humans. It nonetheless feels particularly salient to me at the moment, so I think I want to draw attention to it.
I’m happy to endorse the content of the parent comment. I’m a fan of (constructive, gentle-but-firm) pushback against people making large assertions about the contents of other people’s thoughts and intentions, without much more substantial evidence.
Okay, sure. I think LW should (and for the most part, does) have a norm against personal attacks. I think LW should also (and again, for the most part, does) have a norm against low-effort sniping. I think Ilya’s comment[ing pattern] runs afoul of both of these norms (and does so rather obviously to boot), neither of which (I claim) is “suspiciously specific” in the way you describe.