How to make dent in the “hard problem of consciousness” experimentally. Suppose we understand brain well enough to figure out what makes one experience specific qualia, then stimulate the neurons in a way that makes the person experience them. Maybe even link two people with a “qualia transducer” such that when one person experiences “what it’s like”, the other person can feel it, too.
If this works, what would remain from the “hard problem”?
Chalmers:
To see this, note that even when we have explained the performance of all the cognitive and behavioral functions in the vicinity of experience—perceptual discrimination, categorization, internal access, verbal report—there may still remain a further unanswered question: Why is the performance of these functions accompanied by experience?
If you can distill, store and reproduce this experience on demand, what remains? Or, at least, what would/does Chalmers say about it?
For the record: the purpose of having a “theory of consciousness” is so it can tell us which blobs of matter feel particular things under which specific circumstances, and teach others how to make new blobs of matter that feel particular things. Down to the level of having a field of AI anaesthesiology.
So at least part of what remains, for example, is the task of figuring out, with surgical precision, whether any given LLM (or other AI agent) is “conscious” in any given situation we place it in. This is because your proposal, although it would massively increase our understanding of human consciousness, seems to me to depend on the particular neural configuration of human minds (“stimulating [human] neurons”) and need not automatically generalize to all possible minds.
Thanks for the link! I thought it was a different, related but a harder problem than what is described in https://iep.utm.edu/hard-problem-of-conciousness. I assume we could also try to extract what an AI “feels” when it speaks of redness of red, and compare it with a similar redness extract from the human mind. Maybe even try to cross-inject them. Or would there be still more to answer?
I assume we could also try to extract what an AI “feels” when it speaks of redness of red, and compare it with a similar redness extract from the human mind.
Well, what happens if we do this and we find out that these representations are totally different? Or, moreover, that the AI’s representation of “red” does not seem to align (either in meaning or in structure) with any human-extracted concept or perception? How do we then try to figure out the essence of artificial consciousness, given that comparisons with what we (at that point would) understand best, i.e., human qualia, would no longer output something we can interpret?
I think it is extremely likely that minds with fundamentally different structures perceive the world in fundamentally different ways, so I think the situation in the paragraph above is not only possible, but in fact overwhelmingly likely, conditional on us managing to develop the type of qualia-identifying tech you are talking about. It certainly seems to me that, in such a spot, there would be a fair bit more to answer about this topic.
Well, what happens if we do this and we find out that these representations are totally different? Or, moreover, that the AI’s representation of “red” does not seem to align (either in meaning or in structure) with any human-extracted concept or perception?
I would say that it is a fantastic step forward in our understanding, resolving empirically a question we did not known an answer to.
How do we then try to figure out the essence of artificial consciousness, given that comparisons with what we (at that point would) understand best, i.e., human qualia, would no longer output something we can interpret?
That would be a great stepping stone for further research.
I think it is extremely likely that minds with fundamentally different structures perceive the world in fundamentally different ways, so I think the situation in the paragraph above is not only possible, but in fact overwhelmingly likely, conditional on us managing to develop the type of qualia-identifying tech you are talking about.
I’d love to see this prediction tested, wouldn’t you?
I agree with all of that; my intent was only to make clear (by giving an example) that even after the development of the technology you mentioned in your initial comment, there would likely still be something that “remains” to be analyzed.
I think this restates the hard problem, rather than reducing it.
Suppose we understand brain well enough to figure out what makes one experience specific qualia
We first have to define and detect qualia. As long as it’s only self-reported, there’s no way to know if two person’s qualia are similar, nor how to test a “qualia transducer”.
I think you’re missing (or I am) the distinction between feeling and reporting a feeling. Comparing reports is clearly insufficient across humans or LLMs.
Hmm, I am probably missing something. I thought if a human honestly reports a feeling, we kind of trust them that they felt it? So if an AI reports a feeling, and then there is a conduit where the distillate of that feeling is transmitted to a human, who reports the same feeling, it would go some ways toward accepting that the AI had qualia? I think you are saying that this does not address Chalmers’ point.
I thought if a human honestly reports a feeling, we kind of trust them that they felt it?
Out of politeness, sure, but not rigorously. The “hard problem of consciousness” is that we don’t know if what they felt is the same as what we interpret their report to be.
How to make dent in the “hard problem of consciousness” experimentally. Suppose we understand brain well enough to figure out what makes one experience specific qualia, then stimulate the neurons in a way that makes the person experience them. Maybe even link two people with a “qualia transducer” such that when one person experiences “what it’s like”, the other person can feel it, too.
If this works, what would remain from the “hard problem”?
Chalmers:
If you can distill, store and reproduce this experience on demand, what remains? Or, at least, what would/does Chalmers say about it?
As lc has said:
So at least part of what remains, for example, is the task of figuring out, with surgical precision, whether any given LLM (or other AI agent) is “conscious” in any given situation we place it in. This is because your proposal, although it would massively increase our understanding of human consciousness, seems to me to depend on the particular neural configuration of human minds (“stimulating [human] neurons”) and need not automatically generalize to all possible minds.
Thanks for the link! I thought it was a different, related but a harder problem than what is described in https://iep.utm.edu/hard-problem-of-conciousness. I assume we could also try to extract what an AI “feels” when it speaks of redness of red, and compare it with a similar redness extract from the human mind. Maybe even try to cross-inject them. Or would there be still more to answer?
Well, what happens if we do this and we find out that these representations are totally different? Or, moreover, that the AI’s representation of “red” does not seem to align (either in meaning or in structure) with any human-extracted concept or perception? How do we then try to figure out the essence of artificial consciousness, given that comparisons with what we (at that point would) understand best, i.e., human qualia, would no longer output something we can interpret?
I think it is extremely likely that minds with fundamentally different structures perceive the world in fundamentally different ways, so I think the situation in the paragraph above is not only possible, but in fact overwhelmingly likely, conditional on us managing to develop the type of qualia-identifying tech you are talking about. It certainly seems to me that, in such a spot, there would be a fair bit more to answer about this topic.
I would say that it is a fantastic step forward in our understanding, resolving empirically a question we did not known an answer to.
That would be a great stepping stone for further research.
I’d love to see this prediction tested, wouldn’t you?
I agree with all of that; my intent was only to make clear (by giving an example) that even after the development of the technology you mentioned in your initial comment, there would likely still be something that “remains” to be analyzed.
Yeah, that was my question. Would there be something that remains, and it sounds like Chalmers and others would say that there would be.
I think this restates the hard problem, rather than reducing it.
We first have to define and detect qualia. As long as it’s only self-reported, there’s no way to know if two person’s qualia are similar, nor how to test a “qualia transducer”.
The testing seems easy, one person feels the quale, the other reports the feeling, they compare, what am I missing?
I think you’re missing (or I am) the distinction between feeling and reporting a feeling. Comparing reports is clearly insufficient across humans or LLMs.
Hmm, I am probably missing something. I thought if a human honestly reports a feeling, we kind of trust them that they felt it? So if an AI reports a feeling, and then there is a conduit where the distillate of that feeling is transmitted to a human, who reports the same feeling, it would go some ways toward accepting that the AI had qualia? I think you are saying that this does not address Chalmers’ point.
Out of politeness, sure, but not rigorously. The “hard problem of consciousness” is that we don’t know if what they felt is the same as what we interpret their report to be.