Do you think that people’s driving license should be revoked after the first time they are caught speeding? Should DUI infractions mean that you automatically get fired from your job? Should convicted violent criminals never be allowed to hold another job? We need to maintain a sense of scale between the crime and the punishment, getting your livelihood taken away for the “crime” of not getting vaccinated is way way too excessive for the current death rate of covid. If you think the current death rate warrants such harsh punishments, what’s the death rate where you think the threat of joblessness can be removed?
This is a bad analogy. A DUI or speeding could be a one-time thing. Not getting vaccinated is a continuous decision. All you have to do to reverse it is make the right choice once (or twice if you get Moderna or Pfizer).
Also, drunk driving and speeding are not contagious. A drunk driver can hurt or kill anybody they crash into, but that doesn’t make those people go on to become drunk drivers as well.
I’m not sure that contagiousness is a good reason to believe that an (in)action is particularly harmful, outside of the multiplier contagiousness creates by generating a larger total harm. It seems clear that we’d all agree that murder is much worse than visiting a restaurant with a common cold, despite the fact that the latter is a contagious harm.
Although there is a good point that the analogy breaks down because a DUI doesn’t cause harm during your job (assuming you don’t drive in your work), whereas being unvaccinated does cause expected harm to colleagues and customers.
I’ve known plenty of people that had security clearances revoked for getting a DUI, which meant that they not only lost their jobs, but in their line of work they had to change careers.
Agreed. A more on point analogy would be that you’re not allowed to drive a car that hasn’t passed a safety inspection, since it poses an active threat to other motorists.
I’d be interested to see a good estimate and analysis of this multiplier. In places and times when r>1 the multiplier would be quite large indeed, whereas if r<1 then the mutiplier would be more modest. Some sort of time analysis is needed as to how long r stays greater than 1. (r here is the average number of new people infected by a person with covid.)
The punishment actually scales quite naturally to the crime, because you’re most likely to get caught if you contract Covid, or—worse—cause an outbreak. In the event of an outbreak, contact tracers are allowed to verify who’s vaccinated, inspect security cameras, etc. So the ability to practically enforce the mandate is commensurate with the degree of harm caused.
Canada (where I live) has QR codes that are scanned to verify your vaccination, you can’t avoid a mandate by just lying and risking to get caught if you cause an outbreak. But in fact, I don’t think you should get fired even if you do cause an outbreak, the death-rate of covid in a world with current vaccination levels is just not enough to warrant such a drastic punishment. Things would be different if no one was voluntarily taking the vaccine, and things would be different if covid had a 10x or 100x higher death rate.
Do you think that people’s driving license should be revoked after the first time they are caught speeding? Should DUI infractions mean that you automatically get fired from your job? Should convicted violent criminals never be allowed to hold another job? We need to maintain a sense of scale between the crime and the punishment, getting your livelihood taken away for the “crime” of not getting vaccinated is way way too excessive for the current death rate of covid. If you think the current death rate warrants such harsh punishments, what’s the death rate where you think the threat of joblessness can be removed?
This is a bad analogy. A DUI or speeding could be a one-time thing. Not getting vaccinated is a continuous decision. All you have to do to reverse it is make the right choice once (or twice if you get Moderna or Pfizer).
Also, drunk driving and speeding are not contagious. A drunk driver can hurt or kill anybody they crash into, but that doesn’t make those people go on to become drunk drivers as well.
I’m not sure that contagiousness is a good reason to believe that an (in)action is particularly harmful, outside of the multiplier contagiousness creates by generating a larger total harm. It seems clear that we’d all agree that murder is much worse than visiting a restaurant with a common cold, despite the fact that the latter is a contagious harm.
Although there is a good point that the analogy breaks down because a DUI doesn’t cause harm during your job (assuming you don’t drive in your work), whereas being unvaccinated does cause expected harm to colleagues and customers.
I’ve known plenty of people that had security clearances revoked for getting a DUI, which meant that they not only lost their jobs, but in their line of work they had to change careers.
Agreed. A more on point analogy would be that you’re not allowed to drive a car that hasn’t passed a safety inspection, since it poses an active threat to other motorists.
I’d be interested to see a good estimate and analysis of this multiplier. In places and times when r>1 the multiplier would be quite large indeed, whereas if r<1 then the mutiplier would be more modest. Some sort of time analysis is needed as to how long r stays greater than 1. (r here is the average number of new people infected by a person with covid.)
The punishment actually scales quite naturally to the crime, because you’re most likely to get caught if you contract Covid, or—worse—cause an outbreak. In the event of an outbreak, contact tracers are allowed to verify who’s vaccinated, inspect security cameras, etc. So the ability to practically enforce the mandate is commensurate with the degree of harm caused.
Canada (where I live) has QR codes that are scanned to verify your vaccination, you can’t avoid a mandate by just lying and risking to get caught if you cause an outbreak. But in fact, I don’t think you should get fired even if you do cause an outbreak, the death-rate of covid in a world with current vaccination levels is just not enough to warrant such a drastic punishment. Things would be different if no one was voluntarily taking the vaccine, and things would be different if covid had a 10x or 100x higher death rate.
OK, I’ll revise. Should you be fired if you lie about your vaccination status and cause a deadly outbreak?