But in fact Alex not only “will look like”, butin fact is, the source of the problem. In fact, theentirety of the problemis Alex’s emotional issues
… and then say “Neither ‘blame’ nor ‘fault’ are anywhere in my comment.” I smell a motte-and-bailey in that. There’s obviously a difference between blame games and fault analysis (in the former, one assigns moral weight and docks karma from a person’s holistic score; in the latter, one simply says “X caused Y”). But even in the dispassionate fault analysis sense, it strikes me as naive to claim that Alex’s reaction is—in ALL cases that don’t involve overt abuse—entirely a property of Alex and is entirely Alex’s responsibility.
You seem to think that I’m claiming something like “it’s Alex’s fault that Alex feels this way”. But I’m claiming no such thing. In fact, basically the entirety of my point is that (in the “impartiality” scenario), as far as the group is concerned, it’s simply irrelevant why Alex feels this way. We can even go further and say: it’s irrelevant what Alex does or does not feel. Alex’s feelings are Alex’s business. The group is not interested in evaluating Alex’s feelings, in judging whether they are reasonable or unreasonable, in determine whether Alex is at fault for them or someone else is, etc. etc.
What I am saying is that Alex—specifically, Alex’s behavior (regardless of what feelings are or are not the cause of that behavior)—manifestly is the source of the problem for the group; that problem being, of course, “we now have to deal with one of our members refusing to be in the same room with another one of our members”.
As soon as you start asking why Alex feels this way, and whose fault is it that Alex feels this way, and whether it is reasonable for Alex to feel this way, etc., etc., you are committing yourself to some sort of side-taking. Here is what neutrality would look like:
Alex, to Group [i.e. spokesmember(s) thereof]: I can no longer stand to be in the same room as Bradley! Any event he’s invited to, I will not attend.
Group: Sounds like a bummer, man. Bradley’s invited to all public events, as you know (same as everyone else).
Alex: I have good reasons for feeling this way!
Group: Hey, that’s your own business. It’s not our place to evaluate your feelings, or judge whether they’re reasonable or not. Whether you come to things or not is, as always, your choice. You can attend, or not attend, for whatever reasons you like, or for no particular reason at all. You’re a free-willed adult—do what you think is best; you don’t owe us any explanations.
Alex: But it’s because…
Group (interrupting): No, really. It’s none of our business.
Alex: But if I have a really good reason for feeling this way, you’ll side with me, and stop inviting Bradley to things… right??
Group: Wrong.
Alex: Oh.
Separately:
But even in the dispassionate fault analysis sense, it strikes me as naive to claim that Alex’s reaction is—in ALL cases that don’t involve overt abuse—entirely a property of Alex and is entirely Alex’s responsibility.
Responsibility is one thing, but Alex’s reaction is obviously entirely a property of Alex. I am perplexed by the suggestion that it can be otherwise.
Yeah but you can’t derive fault from property, because by your own admission your model makes no claim of fault. At most you can say that Alex is the immediate causal source of the problem.
I think it’s intellectually dishonest to write:
… and then say “Neither ‘blame’ nor ‘fault’ are anywhere in my comment.” I smell a motte-and-bailey in that. There’s obviously a difference between blame games and fault analysis (in the former, one assigns moral weight and docks karma from a person’s holistic score; in the latter, one simply says “X caused Y”). But even in the dispassionate fault analysis sense, it strikes me as naive to claim that Alex’s reaction is—in ALL cases that don’t involve overt abuse—entirely a property of Alex and is entirely Alex’s responsibility.
I think you’re misunderstanding what I’m saying.
You seem to think that I’m claiming something like “it’s Alex’s fault that Alex feels this way”. But I’m claiming no such thing. In fact, basically the entirety of my point is that (in the “impartiality” scenario), as far as the group is concerned, it’s simply irrelevant why Alex feels this way. We can even go further and say: it’s irrelevant what Alex does or does not feel. Alex’s feelings are Alex’s business. The group is not interested in evaluating Alex’s feelings, in judging whether they are reasonable or unreasonable, in determine whether Alex is at fault for them or someone else is, etc. etc.
What I am saying is that Alex—specifically, Alex’s behavior (regardless of what feelings are or are not the cause of that behavior)—manifestly is the source of the problem for the group; that problem being, of course, “we now have to deal with one of our members refusing to be in the same room with another one of our members”.
As soon as you start asking why Alex feels this way, and whose fault is it that Alex feels this way, and whether it is reasonable for Alex to feel this way, etc., etc., you are committing yourself to some sort of side-taking. Here is what neutrality would look like:
Alex, to Group [i.e. spokesmember(s) thereof]: I can no longer stand to be in the same room as Bradley! Any event he’s invited to, I will not attend.
Group: Sounds like a bummer, man. Bradley’s invited to all public events, as you know (same as everyone else).
Alex: I have good reasons for feeling this way!
Group: Hey, that’s your own business. It’s not our place to evaluate your feelings, or judge whether they’re reasonable or not. Whether you come to things or not is, as always, your choice. You can attend, or not attend, for whatever reasons you like, or for no particular reason at all. You’re a free-willed adult—do what you think is best; you don’t owe us any explanations.
Alex: But it’s because…
Group (interrupting): No, really. It’s none of our business.
Alex: But if I have a really good reason for feeling this way, you’ll side with me, and stop inviting Bradley to things… right??
Group: Wrong.
Alex: Oh.
Separately:
Responsibility is one thing, but Alex’s reaction is obviously entirely a property of Alex. I am perplexed by the suggestion that it can be otherwise.
Yeah but you can’t derive fault from property, because by your own admission your model makes no claim of fault. At most you can say that Alex is the immediate causal source of the problem.
Who ever claimed otherwise?