I suspect our inferential distance may be too high for agreement at this time. But, to clarify on one point
What meanings, and where do you think I’m using each?
You said “I frequently do things that, on the whole, I think I shouldn’t do. Often while actually thinking, in so many words, ‘I really shouldn’t be doing this.‘”. This is a plausible rephrasing of “I frequently do things that I generally disapprove of and perhaps would prefer if people in general wouldn’t do them, also I may sometimes feel guilty about doing things I disapprove of, especially if they’re generally socially disapproved of in my culture, subculture, or social group. When I do these things, I think the words ‘I shouldn’t do this’, by which I don’t literally mean that I shouldn’t do this, but that doing this is ‘boo!’/‘ugh’/low-status/seems to conflict with things I approve of/would not happen in a world I’d prefer to live in.”
I suspect our inferential distance may be too high for agreement at this time.
Oh. Would you care to say more?
(meanings of “should”)
So, your proposed expansion of my second “should”: (1) on what grounds do you think it likely that I mean that, and (2) is it actually different from your proposed expansion of the first? (“Seems to conflict with things I approve of” and “would not happen in a world I’d prefer to live in” are not far from “things that I generally disapprove of” and “perhaps would prefer if people in general wouldn’t do them”, respectively.)
It seems a little curious to me that your proposed expansion of my second “should” offers, in fact, not one possible meaning but five (though I’m not sure there’s a very clear distinction between “boo!” and “ugh” here). It seems to me that this weakens your point—as if you’re sure I must mean something other than what I say, but you have no real idea what.
In fact, despite your dismissive references to social status in what you say, I can’t help suspecting that you’re trying to pull a sort of status move here: when blacktrance says “should” s/he really means “should”, but when gjm says “should” he means “hooray!” or “high-status” or something—anything! -- with a little touch of intellectual dishonesty about it.
Well, you might be right. But let’s see some evidence, if so.
This wouldn’t be the first time I’ve run into inferential distances when discussing ethics on LW, and I suspect it to be the case here, perhaps in part due to differences in terminology, in part due to unstated background assumptions.
on what grounds do you think it likely that I mean that
I don’t know if you in particular mean that, but it’s a common usage I’ve noticed among people who do things that they say they shouldn’t do.
I think I rambled a little too much in my expansion, so to compress it into something more compact: “I occasionally do things I and/or people whose opinions I care about label as ‘morally bad’, and when I do these things, I think the words ‘I shouldn’t do this’. In part I’ve internalized that doing this thing is ‘bad’, but I don’t actually think it’s bad, and I still choose to do it.” To further clarify, when people say “I shouldn’t do X”, they mean that it feels like an external imposition for them, and if they could do what they wanted, they’d cast it aside and do X, and only the desire to be moral (perhaps motivated by guilt, shame, or adherence to social norms) is keeping them from doing it. There is another sense of “I shouldn’t do X”, as in “I shouldn’t put my hand on a hot stove”—there’s no external imposition there, motivation is entirely internal. Both meanings of “should” are common, and perhaps I am wrong to say that only the second, internal meaning of “should” is valid.
If one thinks that one externally-shouldn’t eat meat, they may still eat meat because they don’t think they internally-shouldn’t eat meat. I forgot (due to inferential differences) that belief that morality is external is common (a belief I do not share), and in that case it’s certainly possible to believe you’re acting unethically and still consistently want to eat meat.
I suspect our inferential distance may be too high for agreement at this time. But, to clarify on one point
You said “I frequently do things that, on the whole, I think I shouldn’t do. Often while actually thinking, in so many words, ‘I really shouldn’t be doing this.‘”. This is a plausible rephrasing of “I frequently do things that I generally disapprove of and perhaps would prefer if people in general wouldn’t do them, also I may sometimes feel guilty about doing things I disapprove of, especially if they’re generally socially disapproved of in my culture, subculture, or social group. When I do these things, I think the words ‘I shouldn’t do this’, by which I don’t literally mean that I shouldn’t do this, but that doing this is ‘boo!’/‘ugh’/low-status/seems to conflict with things I approve of/would not happen in a world I’d prefer to live in.”
Oh. Would you care to say more?
So, your proposed expansion of my second “should”: (1) on what grounds do you think it likely that I mean that, and (2) is it actually different from your proposed expansion of the first? (“Seems to conflict with things I approve of” and “would not happen in a world I’d prefer to live in” are not far from “things that I generally disapprove of” and “perhaps would prefer if people in general wouldn’t do them”, respectively.)
It seems a little curious to me that your proposed expansion of my second “should” offers, in fact, not one possible meaning but five (though I’m not sure there’s a very clear distinction between “boo!” and “ugh” here). It seems to me that this weakens your point—as if you’re sure I must mean something other than what I say, but you have no real idea what.
In fact, despite your dismissive references to social status in what you say, I can’t help suspecting that you’re trying to pull a sort of status move here: when blacktrance says “should” s/he really means “should”, but when gjm says “should” he means “hooray!” or “high-status” or something—anything! -- with a little touch of intellectual dishonesty about it.
Well, you might be right. But let’s see some evidence, if so.
This wouldn’t be the first time I’ve run into inferential distances when discussing ethics on LW, and I suspect it to be the case here, perhaps in part due to differences in terminology, in part due to unstated background assumptions.
I don’t know if you in particular mean that, but it’s a common usage I’ve noticed among people who do things that they say they shouldn’t do.
I think I rambled a little too much in my expansion, so to compress it into something more compact: “I occasionally do things I and/or people whose opinions I care about label as ‘morally bad’, and when I do these things, I think the words ‘I shouldn’t do this’. In part I’ve internalized that doing this thing is ‘bad’, but I don’t actually think it’s bad, and I still choose to do it.” To further clarify, when people say “I shouldn’t do X”, they mean that it feels like an external imposition for them, and if they could do what they wanted, they’d cast it aside and do X, and only the desire to be moral (perhaps motivated by guilt, shame, or adherence to social norms) is keeping them from doing it. There is another sense of “I shouldn’t do X”, as in “I shouldn’t put my hand on a hot stove”—there’s no external imposition there, motivation is entirely internal. Both meanings of “should” are common, and perhaps I am wrong to say that only the second, internal meaning of “should” is valid.
If one thinks that one externally-shouldn’t eat meat, they may still eat meat because they don’t think they internally-shouldn’t eat meat. I forgot (due to inferential differences) that belief that morality is external is common (a belief I do not share), and in that case it’s certainly possible to believe you’re acting unethically and still consistently want to eat meat.