What are the key differences between “deep meditation vs. plain old meditation” in your “model”?
I agree with your request for a definition of the terms used.
Would you agree that someone who consistently runs for 10 minutes, three times a week, is going to realize greater long-term health benefits than someone who only run-walks one marathon a year?
I see no reason to assume a priori that a runner’s training schedule says anything about optimal schedule for meditation.
your notion of the time required for “deep” meditation is curiously out of step with what leading meditation instructors advocate.
How do you select among meditation instructors those that are leading? If it’s their popularity, then clearly their instruction as an aggregate will be biased towards what’s appealing to the mass public, rather than what is effective (whatever the word ‘effective’ might mean in this context).
Or does this whole idea of “deep vs. shallow” only apply to meditation and not to aerobic sports, weightlifting, or other activities?
I don’t know what the OP means by those terms but two related points I want to raise from my own perspective:
as an avid reader and programmer, I definitely experience some of my reading/programming sessions as deep, and some as shallow. I suspect this distinction is valid for all mental activities.
I know of at least one meditative tradition (Theravada) that distinguishes different depths of meditation. Those are called jhanas, there is 4 or 8 of them, depending on the specific school, and the transition into them or between them is a discreet event. They also specify more gradual transition of mental states before entering the first jhana.
Joseph Goldstein is one of the first American vipassana teachers. He’s led meditation retreats worldwide since 1974. He is a co-founder of the Insight Meditation Society (est. 1975). Joseph has conducted and produced countless short meditation sessions. Do you take the position that he’s effectively wasting (quite a lot of) people’s time with his “softcore” approach to meditation?
I’m not an OP but I do suspect that an individual who fits this bio would be wasting a lot of time for a lot of people. Or rather, provides no more benefit than any other religious program would provide. Can’t speak specifically about Mr. Goldstein because I don’t know how accurate this bio is.
Perhaps we could build an “enlightenment machine.”
That’s an interesting point that I’ve thought about many times. If the supposed benefits of meditation were available without all the sacrifices, for example by taking a pill, I wonder how many meditators would decide to do that.
Something akin to one of those Electrical Muscle Stimulation devices for people who want to short circuit a proper weightlifting routine. Who needs sex when you can have an Autoblow 2?
Many people are in fact choosing to not have sex with humans, instead simulating interaction with a human while self-stimulating. If your criticism here is based on an assumption that such choice is somehow invalid or worse, it would be great if you could support that. Otherwise, it would be great if you can clarify this part for me.
Your focus on “results” and notions of “return on investment” and gamification of meditation by hacking the “algorithm” is profoundly antithetical to the practice
There are certainly some schools of meditation that criticise focusing on the outcome. But those are not the only ones, right?
“Ten minutes a day toward Enlightenment” is the sort of slogan that has inspired the current generation to unimaginably large numbers of part-time meditators. I think this is something that should be celebrated
Why should it? Having looked through the studies on the supposed benefits of meditation (quite thoroughly, although a few years ago), I believe this is mostly a waste of time. Although I think it’s harmless because that time would otherwise be wasted in some other way.
Many people are in fact choosing to not have sex with humans, instead simulating interaction with a human while self-stimulating. If your criticism here is based on an assumption that such choice is somehow invalid or worse, it would be great if you could support that.
I thought that was probably not a choice for most people. Perhaps a result of society getting so obese that no one finds each other attractive anymore? For me, it’s like the difference between riding (preferably racing) a motorcycle vs playing a motorcycle video game. I can’t imagine why anyone who has experienced the former would prefer the latter.
...provides no more benefit than any other religious program would provide
What makes you call meditation a religious program?
Where is the religion in this practice:
Practice: Mindfulness of Breathing
Find a quiet place, and sit on either a chair or cushion. Choose a chair with a firm, flat seat, and hold your back upright (although not stiffly so). Let the soles of your feet meet the ground, and bring your hands on to your lap. If you sit on a cushion, you can be cross-legged. Let your body be untensed, inviting openness and confidence.
Decide how long to practice for. Your session can be as short as five minutes, or longer. You may find it useful to set an alarm to tell you when to stop, so you don’t have to think about it.
Bring attention to the sensations of breath in your belly. Let go of thinking about or analyzing the breath. Just feel it. Follow its natural rhythms gently with attention: in and out, rising and falling. Let thoughts, emotions, body sensations, and sounds be as they are—you don’t need to follow them or push them away. Just allow them to happen, without interference, as you direct gentle attention to the breath.
When you notice that your mind has wandered, as it likely will often, acknowledge that this has happened, with kindness. Remember, as soon as you’re aware of the wandering, bring your attention back to the breath, and continue to follow it, in and out, moment by moment, with friendly interest.
Continue with steps three and four until it’s time to stop.
===
Clearly you have some interest since you’re here reading and responding to a rather long series of articles on meditation. But it seems you may also harbor a lot of misunderstandings. What’s meditation in your mind? And why are you convinced it’s “a waste of time” when hundreds of millions of people are doing it?
Out of curiosity, is there anything that might change your mind? Scientific papers? Meta-analysis studies? Perhaps testimonials of people’s positive experience? Hundreds of testimonials? Thousands? Tens of thousands? Or is your decision based on some kind of dogma, moral principle, or fear?
I’m not particularly trying to change your mind, I’m just wondering how someone here on a “rationalist”-themed site ended up so blinded by their biases.
I wrote up something on a meditation technique I used as a freediver.
is there anything that might change your mind? Scientific papers? Meta-analysis studies?
Yes, studies with good methodologies and decent sample sizes would make me question my stance. If they were replicated, that would completely change my mind. As I mentioned in my other comments, I have arrived at my present beliefs by doing a literature review few years ago.
I’m a bit more sceptical about meta-analyses since a lot of papers published on the subject are of terribly low quality (or at least were, when I looked into it).
I agree with your request for a definition of the terms used.
I see no reason to assume a priori that a runner’s training schedule says anything about optimal schedule for meditation.
How do you select among meditation instructors those that are leading? If it’s their popularity, then clearly their instruction as an aggregate will be biased towards what’s appealing to the mass public, rather than what is effective (whatever the word ‘effective’ might mean in this context).
I don’t know what the OP means by those terms but two related points I want to raise from my own perspective:
as an avid reader and programmer, I definitely experience some of my reading/programming sessions as deep, and some as shallow. I suspect this distinction is valid for all mental activities.
I know of at least one meditative tradition (Theravada) that distinguishes different depths of meditation. Those are called jhanas, there is 4 or 8 of them, depending on the specific school, and the transition into them or between them is a discreet event. They also specify more gradual transition of mental states before entering the first jhana.
I’m not an OP but I do suspect that an individual who fits this bio would be wasting a lot of time for a lot of people. Or rather, provides no more benefit than any other religious program would provide. Can’t speak specifically about Mr. Goldstein because I don’t know how accurate this bio is.
That’s an interesting point that I’ve thought about many times. If the supposed benefits of meditation were available without all the sacrifices, for example by taking a pill, I wonder how many meditators would decide to do that.
Many people are in fact choosing to not have sex with humans, instead simulating interaction with a human while self-stimulating. If your criticism here is based on an assumption that such choice is somehow invalid or worse, it would be great if you could support that. Otherwise, it would be great if you can clarify this part for me.
There are certainly some schools of meditation that criticise focusing on the outcome. But those are not the only ones, right?
Why should it? Having looked through the studies on the supposed benefits of meditation (quite thoroughly, although a few years ago), I believe this is mostly a waste of time. Although I think it’s harmless because that time would otherwise be wasted in some other way.
I thought that was probably not a choice for most people. Perhaps a result of society getting so obese that no one finds each other attractive anymore? For me, it’s like the difference between riding (preferably racing) a motorcycle vs playing a motorcycle video game. I can’t imagine why anyone who has experienced the former would prefer the latter.
The OP conceded my points were valid btw, but thanks for weighing in with your profound personal insights!
> I believe this is mostly a waste of time.
oh well!
What makes you call meditation a religious program?
Where is the religion in this practice:
Practice: Mindfulness of Breathing
Find a quiet place, and sit on either a chair or cushion. Choose a chair with a firm, flat seat, and hold your back upright (although not stiffly so). Let the soles of your feet meet the ground, and bring your hands on to your lap. If you sit on a cushion, you can be cross-legged. Let your body be untensed, inviting openness and confidence.
Decide how long to practice for. Your session can be as short as five minutes, or longer. You may find it useful to set an alarm to tell you when to stop, so you don’t have to think about it.
Bring attention to the sensations of breath in your belly. Let go of thinking about or analyzing the breath. Just feel it. Follow its natural rhythms gently with attention: in and out, rising and falling. Let thoughts, emotions, body sensations, and sounds be as they are—you don’t need to follow them or push them away. Just allow them to happen, without interference, as you direct gentle attention to the breath.
When you notice that your mind has wandered, as it likely will often, acknowledge that this has happened, with kindness. Remember, as soon as you’re aware of the wandering, bring your attention back to the breath, and continue to follow it, in and out, moment by moment, with friendly interest.
Continue with steps three and four until it’s time to stop.
===
Clearly you have some interest since you’re here reading and responding to a rather long series of articles on meditation. But it seems you may also harbor a lot of misunderstandings. What’s meditation in your mind? And why are you convinced it’s “a waste of time” when hundreds of millions of people are doing it?
Out of curiosity, is there anything that might change your mind? Scientific papers? Meta-analysis studies? Perhaps testimonials of people’s positive experience? Hundreds of testimonials? Thousands? Tens of thousands? Or is your decision based on some kind of dogma, moral principle, or fear?
I’m not particularly trying to change your mind, I’m just wondering how someone here on a “rationalist”-themed site ended up so blinded by their biases.
I wrote up something on a meditation technique I used as a freediver.
https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/ieMQHkLuYXND8Yohn/meditation-skill-surfing-the-urge
Maybe it’ll give you a new perspective; if not, I’d be happy to understand what makes this a “religious program.”
Yes, studies with good methodologies and decent sample sizes would make me question my stance. If they were replicated, that would completely change my mind. As I mentioned in my other comments, I have arrived at my present beliefs by doing a literature review few years ago.
I’m a bit more sceptical about meta-analyses since a lot of papers published on the subject are of terribly low quality (or at least were, when I looked into it).