Someone could be against slavery for THEM personally without being against slavery in general if they didn’t realize that what was wrong for them was also wrong for others.
Huh? I’m against going to jail personally without being against the idea of jail in general. In any case, wasn’t your original argument that ancient Greeks and Romans just didn’t understand what does it mean to be a slave? That clearly does not hold.
most moral theories are so bad you don’t even need to talk about evidence. You can show them to be wrong just because they’re incoherent or self-contradictory.
Do you mean descriptive or prescriptive moral theories? If descriptive, humans are incoherent and self-contradictory.
Which moral theories do you have in mind? A few examples will help.
Mmm, that’s not quite the right abstraction. You’re probably against innocents going to jail in general, no?
Whereas some Roman might not care, as long as it’s no one they care about.
All I’m getting at is that the Romans didn’t think certain things were wrong, but if they were shown in a sufficiently deep way everything we know, they would be moved by it, whereas if we were shown everything they know, we would not find it persuasive of their position. Neither would they, after they had seen what we’ve seen.
I’m talking metaethics, what makes something moral, what it means for something to be moral. Failed ones include divine command theory, the “whatever contributes to human flourishing” idea, whatever makes people happy, whatever matches some platonic ideals out there somehow, whatever leads to selfish interest, etc.
if they were shown in a sufficiently deep way everything we know, they would be moved by it
That doesn’t seem obvious to me at all.
Let’s try it on gay marriage. Romans certainly knew and practiced homosexuality, same for marriage. What knowledge exactly do you want to convey to them to persuade them that gay marriage is a good thing?
I’m talking metaethics, what makes something moral
So, prescriptive. I am not sure in which way do you consider the theories “failed”—in the sense that they have not risen to the status of physics meaning being able to empirically prove all their claims? That doesn’t look to be a viable criterion. In the sense of not having taken over the world? I don’t know, the divine command theory is (or, at least, has been) pretty good at that. You probably wouldn’t want a single theory to take over the world, anyway.
What knowledge exactly do you want to convey to them to persuade them that gay marriage is a good thing?
Kind of a weird example, but I’ll assume we’re talking about the Praetorian Guard. The Romans seem to have had very little respect for women and for being penetrated. So right off the bat, having them read a lot of women’s minds might change their views. (I’m not sure if I want to classify that as knowledge, though.) They likely also have false beliefs not only about women but about the gods and stable societies. None of this seems like a cure-all, but it does seem extremely promising.
I think hairyfigment is of the belief that the Romans (and in the most coherent version of his claim you would have to say male and female) were under misconceptions about the nature of male and female minds, and believes that “a sufficiently deep way” would mean correcting all these misconceptions.
My view is that we really can’t say that as things stand. We’d have to know a lot more about the Roman beliefs about the male and female minds, and compare them against what we know to be accurate about male and female minds.
I was trying to say with my second paragraph that we specifically cannot be sure about that. My first paragraph was simply my best effort at interpreting what I think hairyfigment thinks, not a statement of what I believe to be true.
From my vague recollections I think the idea is worth looking up one way or the other. After all, a massive portion of modern culture is under the impression there are no gender differences and there are other instances of clear major misconceptions I actually can attest to throughout history. But I don’t have any idea with the Romans.
After all, a massive portion of modern culture is under the impression there are no gender differences
That’s the stupid portion of modern culture, and I’m not sure they actually, um, practice that belief. Here’s a quick suggestion: make competitive sports sex-blind :-/
Huh? I’m against going to jail personally without being against the idea of jail in general. In any case, wasn’t your original argument that ancient Greeks and Romans just didn’t understand what does it mean to be a slave? That clearly does not hold.
Do you mean descriptive or prescriptive moral theories? If descriptive, humans are incoherent and self-contradictory.
Which moral theories do you have in mind? A few examples will help.
Mmm, that’s not quite the right abstraction. You’re probably against innocents going to jail in general, no?
Whereas some Roman might not care, as long as it’s no one they care about.
All I’m getting at is that the Romans didn’t think certain things were wrong, but if they were shown in a sufficiently deep way everything we know, they would be moved by it, whereas if we were shown everything they know, we would not find it persuasive of their position. Neither would they, after they had seen what we’ve seen.
I’m talking metaethics, what makes something moral, what it means for something to be moral. Failed ones include divine command theory, the “whatever contributes to human flourishing” idea, whatever makes people happy, whatever matches some platonic ideals out there somehow, whatever leads to selfish interest, etc.
That doesn’t seem obvious to me at all.
Let’s try it on gay marriage. Romans certainly knew and practiced homosexuality, same for marriage. What knowledge exactly do you want to convey to them to persuade them that gay marriage is a good thing?
So, prescriptive. I am not sure in which way do you consider the theories “failed”—in the sense that they have not risen to the status of physics meaning being able to empirically prove all their claims? That doesn’t look to be a viable criterion. In the sense of not having taken over the world? I don’t know, the divine command theory is (or, at least, has been) pretty good at that. You probably wouldn’t want a single theory to take over the world, anyway.
Kind of a weird example, but I’ll assume we’re talking about the Praetorian Guard. The Romans seem to have had very little respect for women and for being penetrated. So right off the bat, having them read a lot of women’s minds might change their views. (I’m not sure if I want to classify that as knowledge, though.) They likely also have false beliefs not only about women but about the gods and stable societies. None of this seems like a cure-all, but it does seem extremely promising.
I don’t understand what that means.
You think no male Roman actually knew what women think? The Roman matrons were entirely voiceless?
I think hairyfigment is of the belief that the Romans (and in the most coherent version of his claim you would have to say male and female) were under misconceptions about the nature of male and female minds, and believes that “a sufficiently deep way” would mean correcting all these misconceptions.
My view is that we really can’t say that as things stand. We’d have to know a lot more about the Roman beliefs about the male and female minds, and compare them against what we know to be accurate about male and female minds.
And what evidence do you have that they laboured under such major misconceptions which we successfully overcame?
I was trying to say with my second paragraph that we specifically cannot be sure about that. My first paragraph was simply my best effort at interpreting what I think hairyfigment thinks, not a statement of what I believe to be true.
From my vague recollections I think the idea is worth looking up one way or the other. After all, a massive portion of modern culture is under the impression there are no gender differences and there are other instances of clear major misconceptions I actually can attest to throughout history. But I don’t have any idea with the Romans.
That’s the stupid portion of modern culture, and I’m not sure they actually, um, practice that belief. Here’s a quick suggestion: make competitive sports sex-blind :-/
I don’t think it’s massive, either.