So Lumifer, I appreciate the time you’ve taken to engage on this thread. I think the topic is an important one and it’s great to see more people discussing it. But...
I agree with OrphanWilde that you would be more pleasant to engage with if you tried to meet people halfway during discussions. Have you read Paul Graham on disagreement? The highest form of disagreement is to improve your opponent’s argument, then refute it. If we’re collaborating to figure out the truth, it’s possible for me to skip spelling out a particular point I’m making in full detail and trust that you’re a smart person and you can figure out that part of the argument. (That’s not to say that there isn’t a flaw in that part of the argument. If you understand the thrust of the argument and also notice a flaw, pointing out the flaw is appreciated.) Being forced to spell things out, especially repeatedly, can be very tedious. Assume good faith, principle of charity, construct steel men instead of straw men, etc. I wrote more on this.
You seem like a smart guy, and I appreciate the cynical perspective you have to offer. But I think I could get even more out of talking to you if you helped me make my arguments for me, e.g. the way I tried to do for you here and here. Let’s collaborate and figure out what’s true!
In real life (aka meatspace) I usually have to control my speech for nuances, implications, connotations, etc. It is not often that you can actually tell a fucking idiot that he is a fucking idiot.
One of the advantages of LW is that I can call a “digging implement named without any disrespect for oppressed people of color” a “spade” and be done with it. I value this advantage and use it. Clarity of speech leads to clarity of thought.
If I may make a recommendation about speaking to me, it would be useful to assume I am not stupid (most of the time, that is :-/). If I’m forcing you to “spell things out” that’s because there is a point to it which you should be able to discover after a bit of thought and just shortcut to the end. If I’m arguing with you this means I already disagree with some issue and the reason for the arguments is to figure out whether it’s a real (usually value-based) disagreement, a definition problem, or just a misunderstanding. A lot of my probing is aimed at firming up and sharpening your argument so that we can see where in that amorphous mass the kernel of contention is. I do steelman the opponents’ position, but if the steelman succeeds, I usually just agree and move to the parts where there is still disagreement or explicitly list the conditions under which the steelman works.
In arguments I mostly aim to define, isolate, and maximally sharpen the point of disagreement—because only then can you really figure out what the disagreement is about and whether it’s real or imaginary. I make no apologies for that—I think it’s good practice.
Cool, it sounds like we’re mostly on the same page about how disagreements should proceed, in theory at least. I’m a bit surprised when you say that your disagreements are usually values-based. It seems like in a lot of cases when I disagree with people it’s because we have different information, and over the course of our conversation, we share information and often converge on the same conclusion.
If I’m forcing you to “spell things out” that’s because there is a point to it which you should be able to discover after a bit of thought and just shortcut to the end.
So maybe this is what frustrated me about our previous discussion… I think I would have appreciated a stronger pointer from you as to where our actual point of disagreement might lay. I’d rather you explain your perceived weakness in my argument rather than forcing me to discover it for myself. (Having arguments is frustrating enough without adding on a puzzle solving aspect.) For example, if you had said something like “communism was a movement founded by people with genes for altruism, and look where that went” earlier in our discussion, I think I would have appreciated that.
If you want, try predicting how I feel about communism, then rot13 the rest of this paragraph. V guvax pbzzhavfz vf n snyfvsvrq ulcbgurfvf ng orfg. Fbpvrgl qrfvta vf n gevpxl ceboyrz, fb rzcvevpvfz vf xrl. Rzcvevpnyyl, pbzzhavfg fbpvrgvrf (bapr gurl fpnyr cnfg ivyyntr-fvmrq) qba’g frrz irel shapgvbany, juvpu vf fgebat rivqrapr gung pbzzhavfz vf n onq zbqry. V qba’g guvax jr unir n inyhrf qvfnterrzrag urer—jr frrz gb or va nterrzrag gung pbzzhavfz naq eryngrq snvyher zbqrf ner onq bhgpbzrf. Engure, V guvax jr unq na vasb qvfpercnapl, jvgu lbh univat gur vafvtug gung nygehvfz trarf zvtug yrnq gb pbzzhavfz naq zr ynpxvat vg. Gur vyyhfvba bs genafcnerapl zvtug unir orra va bcrengvba urer.
I’m a bit surprised when you say that your disagreements are usually values-based.
I don’t know if they are “usually” value-based, but those are the serious, unresolvable ones. If the disagreement is due to miscommunication (e.g. a definitions issue), it’s easy to figure out once you get precise. If the disagreement is about empirical reality, well, you should stop arguing and go get a look at the empirical reality. But if it’s value-based, there is not much you can do.
Besides, a lot of value-based disagreements masquerade as arguments about definitions or data.
I think I would have appreciated a stronger pointer from you as to where our actual point of disagreement might lay.
Mea culpa. I do have a tendency to argue by questions—which I’m generally fine with—but sometimes it gets… excessive :-) I know it can be a problem.
how I feel about communism
Well, it’s 2015 and you’re an American, I think, so it’s highly unlikely you have (or are willing to admit) a liking for communism :-)
But the issue here is this: some people argue that communism failed, yes, but is was a noble and righteous dream which was doomed by imperfect, selfish, nasty people. If only the people were better (higher level of consciousness and all that), communism would work and be just about perfect.
Now, if you can genetically engineer people to be suitable for communism...
So Lumifer, I appreciate the time you’ve taken to engage on this thread. I think the topic is an important one and it’s great to see more people discussing it. But...
I agree with OrphanWilde that you would be more pleasant to engage with if you tried to meet people halfway during discussions. Have you read Paul Graham on disagreement? The highest form of disagreement is to improve your opponent’s argument, then refute it. If we’re collaborating to figure out the truth, it’s possible for me to skip spelling out a particular point I’m making in full detail and trust that you’re a smart person and you can figure out that part of the argument. (That’s not to say that there isn’t a flaw in that part of the argument. If you understand the thrust of the argument and also notice a flaw, pointing out the flaw is appreciated.) Being forced to spell things out, especially repeatedly, can be very tedious. Assume good faith, principle of charity, construct steel men instead of straw men, etc. I wrote more on this.
You seem like a smart guy, and I appreciate the cynical perspective you have to offer. But I think I could get even more out of talking to you if you helped me make my arguments for me, e.g. the way I tried to do for you here and here. Let’s collaborate and figure out what’s true!
I value speaking plainly and clearly.
In real life (aka meatspace) I usually have to control my speech for nuances, implications, connotations, etc. It is not often that you can actually tell a fucking idiot that he is a fucking idiot.
One of the advantages of LW is that I can call a “digging implement named without any disrespect for oppressed people of color” a “spade” and be done with it. I value this advantage and use it. Clarity of speech leads to clarity of thought.
If I may make a recommendation about speaking to me, it would be useful to assume I am not stupid (most of the time, that is :-/). If I’m forcing you to “spell things out” that’s because there is a point to it which you should be able to discover after a bit of thought and just shortcut to the end. If I’m arguing with you this means I already disagree with some issue and the reason for the arguments is to figure out whether it’s a real (usually value-based) disagreement, a definition problem, or just a misunderstanding. A lot of my probing is aimed at firming up and sharpening your argument so that we can see where in that amorphous mass the kernel of contention is. I do steelman the opponents’ position, but if the steelman succeeds, I usually just agree and move to the parts where there is still disagreement or explicitly list the conditions under which the steelman works.
In arguments I mostly aim to define, isolate, and maximally sharpen the point of disagreement—because only then can you really figure out what the disagreement is about and whether it’s real or imaginary. I make no apologies for that—I think it’s good practice.
Cool, it sounds like we’re mostly on the same page about how disagreements should proceed, in theory at least. I’m a bit surprised when you say that your disagreements are usually values-based. It seems like in a lot of cases when I disagree with people it’s because we have different information, and over the course of our conversation, we share information and often converge on the same conclusion.
So maybe this is what frustrated me about our previous discussion… I think I would have appreciated a stronger pointer from you as to where our actual point of disagreement might lay. I’d rather you explain your perceived weakness in my argument rather than forcing me to discover it for myself. (Having arguments is frustrating enough without adding on a puzzle solving aspect.) For example, if you had said something like “communism was a movement founded by people with genes for altruism, and look where that went” earlier in our discussion, I think I would have appreciated that.
If you want, try predicting how I feel about communism, then rot13 the rest of this paragraph. V guvax pbzzhavfz vf n snyfvsvrq ulcbgurfvf ng orfg. Fbpvrgl qrfvta vf n gevpxl ceboyrz, fb rzcvevpvfz vf xrl. Rzcvevpnyyl, pbzzhavfg fbpvrgvrf (bapr gurl fpnyr cnfg ivyyntr-fvmrq) qba’g frrz irel shapgvbany, juvpu vf fgebat rivqrapr gung pbzzhavfz vf n onq zbqry. V qba’g guvax jr unir n inyhrf qvfnterrzrag urer—jr frrz gb or va nterrzrag gung pbzzhavfz naq eryngrq snvyher zbqrf ner onq bhgpbzrf. Engure, V guvax jr unq na vasb qvfpercnapl, jvgu lbh univat gur vafvtug gung nygehvfz trarf zvtug yrnq gb pbzzhavfz naq zr ynpxvat vg. Gur vyyhfvba bs genafcnerapl zvtug unir orra va bcrengvba urer.
I don’t know if they are “usually” value-based, but those are the serious, unresolvable ones. If the disagreement is due to miscommunication (e.g. a definitions issue), it’s easy to figure out once you get precise. If the disagreement is about empirical reality, well, you should stop arguing and go get a look at the empirical reality. But if it’s value-based, there is not much you can do.
Besides, a lot of value-based disagreements masquerade as arguments about definitions or data.
Mea culpa. I do have a tendency to argue by questions—which I’m generally fine with—but sometimes it gets… excessive :-) I know it can be a problem.
Well, it’s 2015 and you’re an American, I think, so it’s highly unlikely you have (or are willing to admit) a liking for communism :-)
But the issue here is this: some people argue that communism failed, yes, but is was a noble and righteous dream which was doomed by imperfect, selfish, nasty people. If only the people were better (higher level of consciousness and all that), communism would work and be just about perfect.
Now, if you can genetically engineer people to be suitable for communism...