So it seems safe to say that Jordan Peterson is essentially claiming that morality exists external to and independent from minds, a sort of moral objectivism, and that humanity has essentially picked this up over time by evolving in accordance with it.
I haven’t heard of him stating it explicitly but I think it is fair to assume that this is at least partly true. For the moment we can agree that this is, at least, a valid hypothesis/possibility. But I would personally add that there is no need to prematurely extract a universal principle. Let’s say that there are evolved and evolving behavioural patterns of adaptation to reality (as interacted with by humans) which we can call ‘morality’.
You will end up with a weaker belief in moral objectivism, yes. But I don’t think you end up with “relativism” in the sense in which it is typically used.
I don’t see how you can extract objective valence by rational means. You have to presuppose a distinction parallel to good and evil at some level. Could you elaborate?
Keep in mind that recorded human society has been around for only a few thousand years, which on an evolutionary timescale is almost nothing.
Peterson is talking in an evolutionary time scale. He is tracing the emergence of these structures through the evolutionary layers of biological organisms preceding humans. He then gives examples of possible emerging proto-morality in animal behaviour while pointing to the parts of the brain involved and to the existence and identical function of these parts in humans.
(But also I think you are still talking during this paragraph about the existence of objective morality. As I said above I don’t think it is necessary to extract a universal principle at the moment.)
I think he also might be doing is downplaying the significant differences you see in cultures over time—take the difference between Eastern and Western philosophy, for example.
I do not see divergence at the core of Eastern and Western ancient thought. On the contrary I see a quite remarkable statement of the same things. I think you might be confusing the dogmatic and social organisation elements with the underlying concepts. Every formulation needs to be in accordance with the current time and culture in order to work in multiple levels at the same time. This is were “morality” diverges a lot. But there are clear patterns in the emergence of basic distinctions like good and evil and virtues and vices as I stated.
Peterson in his exposition examines the stories in Mesopotamia, Egypt, Tao Te Ching, Alchemy and Christianity. He does not seem to have any knowledge of the Islamic tradition. I happen to have some knowledge of that part and I have to say that there is no dissonance I can detect at least for now (I am still exploring as sceptically as I can).
Thank you for the thoughtful points.
I haven’t heard of him stating it explicitly but I think it is fair to assume that this is at least partly true. For the moment we can agree that this is, at least, a valid hypothesis/possibility. But I would personally add that there is no need to prematurely extract a universal principle. Let’s say that there are evolved and evolving behavioural patterns of adaptation to reality (as interacted with by humans) which we can call ‘morality’.
I don’t see how you can extract objective valence by rational means. You have to presuppose a distinction parallel to good and evil at some level. Could you elaborate?
Peterson is talking in an evolutionary time scale. He is tracing the emergence of these structures through the evolutionary layers of biological organisms preceding humans. He then gives examples of possible emerging proto-morality in animal behaviour while pointing to the parts of the brain involved and to the existence and identical function of these parts in humans.
(But also I think you are still talking during this paragraph about the existence of objective morality. As I said above I don’t think it is necessary to extract a universal principle at the moment.)
I do not see divergence at the core of Eastern and Western ancient thought. On the contrary I see a quite remarkable statement of the same things. I think you might be confusing the dogmatic and social organisation elements with the underlying concepts. Every formulation needs to be in accordance with the current time and culture in order to work in multiple levels at the same time. This is were “morality” diverges a lot. But there are clear patterns in the emergence of basic distinctions like good and evil and virtues and vices as I stated.
Peterson in his exposition examines the stories in Mesopotamia, Egypt, Tao Te Ching, Alchemy and Christianity. He does not seem to have any knowledge of the Islamic tradition. I happen to have some knowledge of that part and I have to say that there is no dissonance I can detect at least for now (I am still exploring as sceptically as I can).