But I really honestly feel no “small note of discord” in my mind that should make me expect to find that I am wrong.
So you don’t care that most of the reaction to your article was about how it was written? You don’t care about how much time you’ve spent discussing it with me alone? (Or how much time I’ve spent, hoping that future material will be better?) You don’t care about how much the impact was muted because of all that? You don’t care about what you’ve learned about the value of clear writing? You don’t care about building a reputation as a guy who knows about something interesting but can’t write for beans? You don’t care about your apparent ignorance of editing done either by yourself or another, or how to get it, or that you were ignorant of being ignorant, or that you might be generally miscalibrated about your competence? You don’t care about sending the message that you don’t care about all the foregoing?
I’m not asking for a large note of discord, but I definitely think there should be a small note there somewhere.
refocus our attention on the future of what we need to write about DI?
I’d rather discuss you. DI is just one topic, and hopefully just the first of many topics you might discuss here. Someone else will sooner or later pick up the DI baton, but if you ignore any lessons to be learned here, when will you learn them? Sooner would be better than later.
After rereading your last comment here, I just wanted to make clear: I do care very much.
Thank you making an excellent, explicit, compressed list of everything I did wrong. (...Where else than LW would that be obviously non-sarcastic? :P)
It is very valuable and I will be using it to improve. If I had a printer, I’d print it out and put it by my computer. (As it is I’ll just have to save it to a file I use a lot.)
I’m going to the effort of telling you this because, due to the value of the comment, I want to encourage similar feedback from you in the future.
...And if I had never made the attempt, I never would have gotten that feedback from you either. :P
Yes, I realize that you can’t just say, “Well, it’s all right, cuz I learned a valuable lesson!” and then keep doing the same dumb thing, but… whenever I have done a dumb thing, it’s cuz I haven’t learned that lesson yet! So long as you’re not twisting that into an excuse to keep doing the dumb thing, or to avoid trying to learn faster not to do different dumb things in the future, you’ve got it right, right?
So, I’ve begun writing a new post, “A dry presentation of some empirical evidence on DI’s effectiveness”. (An attempt to replace that intended function of my original post with as high-quality a replacement as Misha’s post was for the intended function of the ‘theory sketch’ section.)
KPier very kindly offered to help me with editing, so I sent her the first seven-ish paragraphs I had written. She found one change to recommend, somewhat ambivalent herself over which way was best. I wasn’t sure either, and found myself wondering what I’d decide in the end.
Then I started wondering about what differences in responses there might be between a post where she made all the final decisions, and a post where where I did.
And then I thought… double-blind experiment! (Woot woot, raise the empirical roof. :P)
Here’s my idea:
I finish writing the post, get the ‘her final’ and ‘my final’ versions, and then make a post linking to both versions and explaining the experiment.
I’ll just label them version A and version B (flip a coin to avoid any weird bias I may have on As and Bs, not that I’d anticipate much), and ask the reader to follow one or the other (by flipping a coin to avoid any weird bias they may have; Mostly just to make sure the sample sizes for each version are equalized.)
Then people record their impression and give me their feedback (without directly quoting the text), and I have to try and discriminate which readers got which.
Does that sound like a neat idea? If it works well, it seems like it might even end up being worth creating an automated system for setting up and running such experiments (without all the coin flipping and link following), for people to use with appropriate posts.
Luke did such a test recently. It’s probably useful for feedback (right now, his two version are at 20 and 3 karma), but really annoying for commenters. I would recommend getting some beta testers instead (I volunteer). Even a small sample of readers should be able to catch most relevant problems.
Thanks! I did think it sounded annoying for commenter, and I don’t want to try the general audience’s patience much further at this point. Hence why I’m just asking a few people what they think of it in the comments.
Being able to calibrate myself objectively is an extremely attractive idea, though.
I appreciate your willingness to have an in-depth discussion of this topic with me, and if I had infinite time, I would gladly take you up on it. But since I don’t, I’m sorry, but I’m going to have to bow out of discussing the subject of me in order to have more time for the subject of DI.
I have already learned lots of things I think I could apply to better accomplishing similar goals in the future. And I don’t anticipate having to introduce another such wide, deep, complex topic as DI from scratch again.
Again, thank you, and I hope to see more of you in the DI discussion.
So you don’t care that most of the reaction to your article was about how it was written? You don’t care about how much time you’ve spent discussing it with me alone? (Or how much time I’ve spent, hoping that future material will be better?) You don’t care about how much the impact was muted because of all that? You don’t care about what you’ve learned about the value of clear writing? You don’t care about building a reputation as a guy who knows about something interesting but can’t write for beans? You don’t care about your apparent ignorance of editing done either by yourself or another, or how to get it, or that you were ignorant of being ignorant, or that you might be generally miscalibrated about your competence? You don’t care about sending the message that you don’t care about all the foregoing?
I’m not asking for a large note of discord, but I definitely think there should be a small note there somewhere.
I’d rather discuss you. DI is just one topic, and hopefully just the first of many topics you might discuss here. Someone else will sooner or later pick up the DI baton, but if you ignore any lessons to be learned here, when will you learn them? Sooner would be better than later.
After rereading your last comment here, I just wanted to make clear: I do care very much.
Thank you making an excellent, explicit, compressed list of everything I did wrong. (...Where else than LW would that be obviously non-sarcastic? :P)
It is very valuable and I will be using it to improve. If I had a printer, I’d print it out and put it by my computer. (As it is I’ll just have to save it to a file I use a lot.)
I’m going to the effort of telling you this because, due to the value of the comment, I want to encourage similar feedback from you in the future.
...And if I had never made the attempt, I never would have gotten that feedback from you either. :P
Yes, I realize that you can’t just say, “Well, it’s all right, cuz I learned a valuable lesson!” and then keep doing the same dumb thing, but… whenever I have done a dumb thing, it’s cuz I haven’t learned that lesson yet! So long as you’re not twisting that into an excuse to keep doing the dumb thing, or to avoid trying to learn faster not to do different dumb things in the future, you’ve got it right, right?
So I still think “Just Try It” was good advice.
I’ll be sure to criticize you in the future, then.
Precisely. To err is human, to persevere is of the devil, or however it goes.
Most excellent Gwern!
I have a proposition!
So, I’ve begun writing a new post, “A dry presentation of some empirical evidence on DI’s effectiveness”. (An attempt to replace that intended function of my original post with as high-quality a replacement as Misha’s post was for the intended function of the ‘theory sketch’ section.)
KPier very kindly offered to help me with editing, so I sent her the first seven-ish paragraphs I had written. She found one change to recommend, somewhat ambivalent herself over which way was best. I wasn’t sure either, and found myself wondering what I’d decide in the end.
Then I started wondering about what differences in responses there might be between a post where she made all the final decisions, and a post where where I did.
And then I thought… double-blind experiment! (Woot woot, raise the empirical roof. :P)
Here’s my idea:
I finish writing the post, get the ‘her final’ and ‘my final’ versions, and then make a post linking to both versions and explaining the experiment.
I’ll just label them version A and version B (flip a coin to avoid any weird bias I may have on As and Bs, not that I’d anticipate much), and ask the reader to follow one or the other (by flipping a coin to avoid any weird bias they may have; Mostly just to make sure the sample sizes for each version are equalized.)
Then people record their impression and give me their feedback (without directly quoting the text), and I have to try and discriminate which readers got which.
Does that sound like a neat idea? If it works well, it seems like it might even end up being worth creating an automated system for setting up and running such experiments (without all the coin flipping and link following), for people to use with appropriate posts.
Luke did such a test recently. It’s probably useful for feedback (right now, his two version are at 20 and 3 karma), but really annoying for commenters. I would recommend getting some beta testers instead (I volunteer). Even a small sample of readers should be able to catch most relevant problems.
Thanks! I did think it sounded annoying for commenter, and I don’t want to try the general audience’s patience much further at this point. Hence why I’m just asking a few people what they think of it in the comments.
Being able to calibrate myself objectively is an extremely attractive idea, though.
It’s been done before, but not often, so I infer it doesn’t work well. Possibly this is just due to clumsy implementation.
And I’ll be sure to strive to make your job much smaller. =]
I appreciate your willingness to have an in-depth discussion of this topic with me, and if I had infinite time, I would gladly take you up on it. But since I don’t, I’m sorry, but I’m going to have to bow out of discussing the subject of me in order to have more time for the subject of DI.
I have already learned lots of things I think I could apply to better accomplishing similar goals in the future. And I don’t anticipate having to introduce another such wide, deep, complex topic as DI from scratch again.
Again, thank you, and I hope to see more of you in the DI discussion.