Would you agree in music that there are limited factors involved in what makes a song?
Not really. There are limited factors if you define ‘song’ in a limited way (see previous post). What if I define a song as ‘the arranging and reproduction of sonic sensory objects perceivable by humans, with the intention of producing an effect on a human being’ ?
There are probably more than I can name (rhythm, chords, melody, instrumentation, etc), but there is a limit to how many factors are at play. These factors exist in limited distinct manifestations but that have infinite gradation. For example, look at the factor of instruments in an orchestra. There may be infinite gradations of each type of orchestral instrument (in the sound that it makes), but there are not infinite distinct types of instruments. Think about why there are around 24 instruments (I believe) in an orchestra—there are infinite gradations of instruments but a limit to distinct instruments.
Why are you choosing to focus on the limited factors (of our own defining) instead of the infinite gradations and permutations? And don’t forget that music is created by the permutations. There are 12 tones in an octave in the western system but music is created, among many other things, by their arrangement in time. It is a completely different thing to play an A and then a C to playing a C and then an A. Also, why are there 24 instruments in an orchestra? Assuming that is true, it would be because people decided they liked the balance and it became a convention. But there is nothing that stops you using any number of instruments as a composer. You could decide that you want a dog in the middle of the orchestra that you have trained to bark when the maestro signs. Cool, now you have a dog concerto (sorry, too much avant garde exposure :P).
The laws and matter of the universe manifests itself into limited distinct factors at play in music, which then manifests into limited distinct songs (those combinations of factors that produce a musical effect on a human being—related to our hearing and mental nature).
Now, here is an, apparently, general statement. I would rephrase as: ‘The laws and matter of the universe allow for sound waves, the permutations of which are experienced by humans through what we could define as ‘songs’ (those combinations of sound waves that produce an effect on a human being)‘. I find this more accurate as I am being descriptive without sneaking in conclusions in my definition. The word ‘limited’ you will have to offer supporting arguments about.
There are a limited number of distinct songs that we have recorded up until the present that can produce the same level of effect on a human being as “Satisfaction”. How can there then be an infinite number of distinct songs to create in the future that would have an equal or greater effect on a human being as “Satisfaction”?
A piece of music is experienced very differently from different people. We actually do not fully understand how it works. There are linguistic components, musical components, social components etc. Could you explain what you mean by ‘effect’?
And while different songs have different levels of effect on different people, there is a non-perfect but non-arbitrary consensus on certain songs or artists having more of an effect than others (the extreme example being my random chords recorded have little effect vs “Satisfaction” having great effect).
Is this really true? This is related to defining ‘effect’ in my previous question. After we do that, we can ask about consensus. It is here where the rabbit hole goes on forever. There are people (I have met them) that would get much more ‘effect’ from your random chords recording than from “Satisfaction”. For them “Satisfaction” draws them towards passivity but randomness excites them as a new sonic stimulus. They might connect this to philosophical schools and derive intellectual satisfaction, or just have a connection to a self-image of ‘avant-garde’ that craves non-convention. This you could argue is pathological but it is undeniable that you would get an ‘effect’ through the arrangement of sound waves. Is this art? Who’s to say. We do not know what art is and that is what you will find in front of you one way or another.
Well it seems that, if I continue, I will end up in an ontological question. It was inevitable wasn’t it? I think I will stop here for now ;)
P.S: Your argument for ‘completeness’ might have been easier if you did not focus on art.
Yes, I think we are stuck at this point. It seems that you are saying that it is self-evident that all relevant factors are unlimited and completely subjective, but from the points I was making I was trying to show why to me it is self-evident that the relevant factors are limited and objective. Just because something can have unlimited gradation, doesn’t mean that something like “instrumentation” or “melody” is indistinct and has no boundaries. And the distinctness is what leads to its perceived limit.
Along the same lines, you are arguing against absolute objectivity in musical appreciation, but that is not what I was asserting. I was arguing that there is an absolute limit to the number of distinct songs with a certain combination of distinct factors, and that because human nature between people has commonalities, there is consensus and similar subjective experience (within a range) of what has a greater enjoyment or emotional effect on listeners (I was using the word effect in reference to your own definition). To argue that art or music is absolutely subjective and indistinct seems the exact opposite of what is self-evident to me. You would also have to deny any shared human nature as to what sounds or songs have an emotional or mental effect on people.
I think those two points are where we truly disagree and won’t get past. Thanks for your input and the back and forth! I enjoyed the conversation.
It seems that you are saying that it is self-evident that all relevant factors are unlimited and completely subjective.
To argue that art or music is absolutely subjective and indistinct seems the exact opposite of what is self-evident to me.
I am not saying that. It is actually a mixture. The human nature part is objective. For example, as far as I can tell the perception of the octave is a human universal in music. But a large part of art, is undeniably subjective. This is easily demonstrated by exploring traditional music and checking studies on different cultures perception of each others music. You can think of the way art functions as linked to the nature / nurture human characteristic.
Thanks for your input and the back and forth! I enjoyed the conversation.
Not really. There are limited factors if you define ‘song’ in a limited way (see previous post). What if I define a song as ‘the arranging and reproduction of sonic sensory objects perceivable by humans, with the intention of producing an effect on a human being’ ?
Why are you choosing to focus on the limited factors (of our own defining) instead of the infinite gradations and permutations? And don’t forget that music is created by the permutations. There are 12 tones in an octave in the western system but music is created, among many other things, by their arrangement in time. It is a completely different thing to play an A and then a C to playing a C and then an A. Also, why are there 24 instruments in an orchestra? Assuming that is true, it would be because people decided they liked the balance and it became a convention. But there is nothing that stops you using any number of instruments as a composer. You could decide that you want a dog in the middle of the orchestra that you have trained to bark when the maestro signs. Cool, now you have a dog concerto (sorry, too much avant garde exposure :P).
Now, here is an, apparently, general statement. I would rephrase as: ‘The laws and matter of the universe allow for sound waves, the permutations of which are experienced by humans through what we could define as ‘songs’ (those combinations of sound waves that produce an effect on a human being)‘. I find this more accurate as I am being descriptive without sneaking in conclusions in my definition. The word ‘limited’ you will have to offer supporting arguments about.
A piece of music is experienced very differently from different people. We actually do not fully understand how it works. There are linguistic components, musical components, social components etc. Could you explain what you mean by ‘effect’?
Is this really true? This is related to defining ‘effect’ in my previous question. After we do that, we can ask about consensus. It is here where the rabbit hole goes on forever. There are people (I have met them) that would get much more ‘effect’ from your random chords recording than from “Satisfaction”. For them “Satisfaction” draws them towards passivity but randomness excites them as a new sonic stimulus. They might connect this to philosophical schools and derive intellectual satisfaction, or just have a connection to a self-image of ‘avant-garde’ that craves non-convention. This you could argue is pathological but it is undeniable that you would get an ‘effect’ through the arrangement of sound waves. Is this art? Who’s to say. We do not know what art is and that is what you will find in front of you one way or another.
Well it seems that, if I continue, I will end up in an ontological question. It was inevitable wasn’t it? I think I will stop here for now ;)
P.S: Your argument for ‘completeness’ might have been easier if you did not focus on art.
Yes, I think we are stuck at this point. It seems that you are saying that it is self-evident that all relevant factors are unlimited and completely subjective, but from the points I was making I was trying to show why to me it is self-evident that the relevant factors are limited and objective. Just because something can have unlimited gradation, doesn’t mean that something like “instrumentation” or “melody” is indistinct and has no boundaries. And the distinctness is what leads to its perceived limit.
Along the same lines, you are arguing against absolute objectivity in musical appreciation, but that is not what I was asserting. I was arguing that there is an absolute limit to the number of distinct songs with a certain combination of distinct factors, and that because human nature between people has commonalities, there is consensus and similar subjective experience (within a range) of what has a greater enjoyment or emotional effect on listeners (I was using the word effect in reference to your own definition). To argue that art or music is absolutely subjective and indistinct seems the exact opposite of what is self-evident to me. You would also have to deny any shared human nature as to what sounds or songs have an emotional or mental effect on people.
I think those two points are where we truly disagree and won’t get past. Thanks for your input and the back and forth! I enjoyed the conversation.
Just to clarify on your last comments:
I am not saying that. It is actually a mixture. The human nature part is objective. For example, as far as I can tell the perception of the octave is a human universal in music. But a large part of art, is undeniably subjective. This is easily demonstrated by exploring traditional music and checking studies on different cultures perception of each others music. You can think of the way art functions as linked to the nature / nurture human characteristic.
Thank you too. It was fun! :)