Just so I understand that last part… are you claiming: 1) …there is no factor or set of factors X such that X screens off skin color for purposes of calculating loan EV, 2) …there may be such an X, but we don’t know what it is and/or have no way of measuring it, 3) …we know what X is, but the admissible parts of the track record don’t include it, ...or something else?
#1 seems really unlikely to me, so if you think it likely I’m interested in your reasons. #2 seems plausible. #3 also seems plausible, but if true, suggests that talking about the admissability of skin color is a herring of unspecified hue; as a bank, I should be trying to get X admitted instead.
I am claiming that you have jumped to the conclusion that claims 1-n must all be false and hence the cancellation is a Bad thing. For my purpose, any of 1-3 can be correct, and I don’t need to argue for any specific one especially if you already find plausible any of them.
If you want to overrule the bank’s reaction, you need a lot of local domain-specific knowledge, and that’s something neither you nor I have.
Here’s an example of the sort of obscure knowledge you might need: are you familiar with the term “minority fronts”? This is when a government or other entity attempts a form of affirmative action in which minority-owned businesses or organizations get financially favored for grants or bidding on contracts; yet of course there aren’t very many competent minority-owned businesses (that’s why they’re doing it in the first place), so this immediately leads to fraud in which a person meeting the minority criteria is put in place as the straw owner of a company actually run by other people of other groups and then the business bids on business as a minority-owned business, frequently simply passing on the work and money to a normal business minus the straw owner’s share. Naturally, this is largely meaningless for a white-owned business as whites are not considered a minority. Now, remembering that the ‘owner’ in such cases has stooped to conspiracy and felony fraud to steal possibly millions, do you think that their shell business is a better or worse credit risk than an equivalent white owner matched on other observables like income?
Personally, I’d say worse. This is just a cute example of why race can be a salient factor in loans and why a white owner might be different from a black owner; I bring it up to stand for the larger class of relevant details and possibilities, not being a banker or economist or risk specialist. So before you can say that the ‘discrimination’ is purely irrational and unjustifiable, you need to know about all these details. Do you? I don’t think you do.
EDIT: Ran into an international example of the abuse of affirmative action in The Economist:
The same goes for civil-service quotas. When jobs are dished out for reasons other than competence, the state grows less competent, as anyone who has wrestled with Indian or Nigerian officialdom can attest. Moreover, rules favouring businesses owned by members of particular groups are easy to game. Malaysians talk of “Ali-Baba” firms, where Ali (an ethnic Malay) lends his name, for a fee, to Baba (a Chinese businessman) to win a government contract.
Although these policies tend to start with the intention of favouring narrow groups, they spread as others clamour to be included. That American federal programme began by awarding no-bid contracts to firms owned by blacks, Hispanics and Native Americans; now it covers people with ancestry from at least 33 countries. In India 60% of the population are eligible for privileges as members of scheduled castes, tribes or “other backward classes”. Such policies poison democracy by encouraging divisions along lines drawn by discriminatory rules. The anger thus stoked has helped stir bloody conflicts in India, Rwanda and Sri Lanka. And such rules, once in place, are almost impossible to get rid of. In 1949 India’s constitution said quotas should be phased out in ten years, but they are now more widespread than ever. America’s policies have survived decades of legal pushback, though not unscathed.
For my purpose, any of 1-3 can be correct, and I don’t need to argue for any specific one especially if you already find plausible any of them.
OK.
you have jumped to the conclusion that claims 1-n must all be false
If that’s true, I haven’t noticed. If you feel like summarizing the evidence for believing I’ve reached that conclusion, though, I’ll certainly listen.
If you want to overrule the bank’s reaction, you need a lot of local domain-specific knowledge
I certainly agree that overruling the bank’s decision about loans without knowing about as much about loans as the bank does is going to have unexpected consequences, so unless the bank is currently pessimizing for my values I’m probably going to be less happy with the result than I am now.
And I certainly agree that I don’t know about all the details that go into making decisions about loans.
Just so I understand that last part… are you claiming:
1) …there is no factor or set of factors X such that X screens off skin color for purposes of calculating loan EV,
2) …there may be such an X, but we don’t know what it is and/or have no way of measuring it,
3) …we know what X is, but the admissible parts of the track record don’t include it,
...or something else?
#1 seems really unlikely to me, so if you think it likely I’m interested in your reasons.
#2 seems plausible.
#3 also seems plausible, but if true, suggests that talking about the admissability of skin color is a herring of unspecified hue; as a bank, I should be trying to get X admitted instead.
I am claiming that you have jumped to the conclusion that claims 1-n must all be false and hence the cancellation is a Bad thing. For my purpose, any of 1-3 can be correct, and I don’t need to argue for any specific one especially if you already find plausible any of them.
If you want to overrule the bank’s reaction, you need a lot of local domain-specific knowledge, and that’s something neither you nor I have.
Here’s an example of the sort of obscure knowledge you might need: are you familiar with the term “minority fronts”? This is when a government or other entity attempts a form of affirmative action in which minority-owned businesses or organizations get financially favored for grants or bidding on contracts; yet of course there aren’t very many competent minority-owned businesses (that’s why they’re doing it in the first place), so this immediately leads to fraud in which a person meeting the minority criteria is put in place as the straw owner of a company actually run by other people of other groups and then the business bids on business as a minority-owned business, frequently simply passing on the work and money to a normal business minus the straw owner’s share. Naturally, this is largely meaningless for a white-owned business as whites are not considered a minority. Now, remembering that the ‘owner’ in such cases has stooped to conspiracy and felony fraud to steal possibly millions, do you think that their shell business is a better or worse credit risk than an equivalent white owner matched on other observables like income?
Personally, I’d say worse. This is just a cute example of why race can be a salient factor in loans and why a white owner might be different from a black owner; I bring it up to stand for the larger class of relevant details and possibilities, not being a banker or economist or risk specialist. So before you can say that the ‘discrimination’ is purely irrational and unjustifiable, you need to know about all these details. Do you? I don’t think you do.
EDIT: Ran into an international example of the abuse of affirmative action in The Economist:
OK.
If that’s true, I haven’t noticed.
If you feel like summarizing the evidence for believing I’ve reached that conclusion, though, I’ll certainly listen.
I certainly agree that overruling the bank’s decision about loans without knowing about as much about loans as the bank does is going to have unexpected consequences, so unless the bank is currently pessimizing for my values I’m probably going to be less happy with the result than I am now.
And I certainly agree that I don’t know about all the details that go into making decisions about loans.