In our reality Americans built military bases in Germany to prevent Soviets from taking over. As of 2009 those bases are still there and operational. A lot of American personnel live there: varying accounts say from 50000 to 100000 doing duty, and their families. Germany pays America about 1 billion dollars each year for base maintenance.
If you think Germans today are strongly patriotic and have invented new symbols, I encourage you to go to Berlin and try finding indications of that.
Being ‘patriotic’ (or nationalistic) is arguably what started the world wars. Germany definitely has a strong cultural identity and fortunately has stayed away from the horrors of nationalism. Places where people wave flags are scary.
This might sound blasphemous here, but nationalism doesn’t seem to me singularly harmful compared to other belief systems like religions or global ideologies. For example, the Cold War was a conflict between two explicitly internationalist visions of the world and resulted in tens of wars around the globe. If you want to find the root of humanity’s woes, dig deeper.
I think that nationalism, religion, and global ideology are different aspects of the same problem, that they create an in group and an out group which can have conflicts.
And these aspects feed on each other. The Cold War era global ideology that is referred to as “democracy” seems to really be a sort of reversed communism (for example, the Russian government suppressed religion, so the American government violates its founding democratic principals to promote religion) that gained enthusiasm from American nationalism.
Similarly, in the so called “War on Terror”, the conflict is portrayed as between Christianity and Islam, to feed the nationalism of those who believe “America is a Christian nation”.
Similarly, in the so called “War on Terror”, the conflict is portrayed as between Christianity and Islam, to feed the nationalism of those who believe “America is a Christian nation”.
So, if I interviewed people in the middle east, they wouldn’t see it as a conflict between Christianity and Islam?
Honestly, I don’t know. I have a better handle on what politicians and pundits say, and how people react, in America than in the Middle East. Given how many Americans believe that Iraq was involved in destroying the World Trade Center, we have a problem. People are actually thinking “Our enemies are Muslims, therefore Muslims are our enemies.”
No, if you went to the Middle East they would not see it as a conflict between Christianity and Islam. They see it as a conflict between America and terrorist groups.
“Personal experience” is not particularly informative. Most people think they have a much better handle on what most people think than they actually do. I know this from personal experience.
They do, but other than that when I was there I didn’t get the impression that “Danish” is as much of an applause light there as, say, “Irish” is in Ireland, “American” is in the US, or “Argentine” is in Argentina.
In our reality Americans built military bases in Germany to prevent Soviets from taking over. As of 2009 those bases are still there and operational. A lot of American personnel live there: varying accounts say from 50000 to 100000 doing duty, and their families. Germany pays America about 1 billion dollars each year for base maintenance.
If you think Germans today are strongly patriotic and have invented new symbols, I encourage you to go to Berlin and try finding indications of that.
Being ‘patriotic’ (or nationalistic) is arguably what started the world wars. Germany definitely has a strong cultural identity and fortunately has stayed away from the horrors of nationalism. Places where people wave flags are scary.
This might sound blasphemous here, but nationalism doesn’t seem to me singularly harmful compared to other belief systems like religions or global ideologies. For example, the Cold War was a conflict between two explicitly internationalist visions of the world and resulted in tens of wars around the globe. If you want to find the root of humanity’s woes, dig deeper.
I think that nationalism, religion, and global ideology are different aspects of the same problem, that they create an in group and an out group which can have conflicts.
And these aspects feed on each other. The Cold War era global ideology that is referred to as “democracy” seems to really be a sort of reversed communism (for example, the Russian government suppressed religion, so the American government violates its founding democratic principals to promote religion) that gained enthusiasm from American nationalism.
Similarly, in the so called “War on Terror”, the conflict is portrayed as between Christianity and Islam, to feed the nationalism of those who believe “America is a Christian nation”.
So, if I interviewed people in the middle east, they wouldn’t see it as a conflict between Christianity and Islam?
Honestly, I don’t know. I have a better handle on what politicians and pundits say, and how people react, in America than in the Middle East. Given how many Americans believe that Iraq was involved in destroying the World Trade Center, we have a problem. People are actually thinking “Our enemies are Muslims, therefore Muslims are our enemies.”
No, if you went to the Middle East they would not see it as a conflict between Christianity and Islam. They see it as a conflict between America and terrorist groups.
Evidence, please.
How about personal experience?
“Personal experience” is not particularly informative. Most people think they have a much better handle on what most people think than they actually do. I know this from personal experience.
As a counterexample, Danes seem to enjoy flag-waving quite a lot, but are IMHO pretty unscary.
I agree with your general point though.
You’ve obviously never watched a flotilla of longboats approach your shore.
Nor looked up the etymology of the word “danegeld”.
They do, but other than that when I was there I didn’t get the impression that “Danish” is as much of an applause light there as, say, “Irish” is in Ireland, “American” is in the US, or “Argentine” is in Argentina.
IAWY in general, but I think Denmark is a pretty good counterexample to this.
But they have kept a strong cultural identity, and within a generation became one of the richest nations on the planet.
Yes.