In terms of writing quality, I’ve encountered journal articles I’d have been ashamed to have produced in middle school. I’ve often reflected that it might be an improvement to mandate “Writing for Scientists” classes, which teach clear and succinct written communication. The jargon barrier frequently serves to hide the fact that the authors of a paper aren’t very good at communicating their ideas, even to people who’re familiar with the specialized language of their field. This should be no surprise, since many people are bad at clear written communication, and a scientific education doesn’t do much to select for this ability.
Sure, it’s generally possible to read and extract the relevant information from a badly written article, but it makes the process of researching the literature considerably slower and more error-prone, so it’s not as if bad writing doesn’t come with practical costs
Of course, this runs into the same problem, that a person in, say, the 99.99th percentile of scientific ability and 40th percentile of writing ability is probably going to end up with a lower GPA than someone in the 98th percentile of scientific ability and the 90th of writing ability, although the former is almost certainly more valuable to their field.
In terms of writing quality, I’ve encountered journal articles I’d have been ashamed to have produced in middle school.
Check the name and institution. Science is done in English, but not always by native English-speakers.
I’ve often reflected that it might be an improvement to mandate “Writing for Scientists” classes, which teach clear and succinct written communication.
I took one at my undergraduate institution. It was a good idea but a poor execution- basically, you could only do so much in four months, and there’s too much diversity in required outputs (as different journals and fields have different formats). I did have enough pointed suggestions at the end of the class that I think widespread mediocre execution is possible, and with a clever professor the class can become good.
Check the name and institution. Science is done in English, but not always by native English-speakers.
The issue is by no means exclusive to non-native speakers.
Having peer-edited papers from many fellow students throughout college, I was astonished not only by the low quality of writing, but the lack of improvement from first year to graduation. Of course, it’s possible that most people are simply innately incapable of writing above low standards and these students had hit their ceiling, but I don’t think there’s any basis to infer this given that they weren’t given any instruction or pressure to improve. Grading was only influenced by fluency of writing at the very bottom end, so there was very weak selection for writing ability.
Sure, it’s generally possible to read and extract the relevant information from a badly written article, but it makes the process of researching the literature considerably slower and more error-prone, so it’s not as if bad writing doesn’t come with practical costs.
Agreed, and I think the ability and inclination to communicate well is actually a reasonable standard.
Of course, this runs into the same problem, that a person in, say, the 99.99th percentile of scientific ability and 40th percentile of writing ability is probably going to end up with a lower GPA than someone in the 98th percentile of scientific ability and the 90th of writing ability, although the former is almost certainly more valuable to their field.
In Physics? Math? I’m not sure. Is anyone here doing an undergrad program in this fields? How much writing are you expected to do, and how dependent is your GPA on your writing ability?
In Physics? Math? I’m not sure. Is anyone here doing an undergrad program in this fields? How much writing are you expected to do, and how dependent is your GPA on your writing ability?
I wasn’t claiming that this is currently the case in math or physics programs, but that it would be a consequence of mandating “Writing for Scientists” courses.
In my own science courses, the answers were “quite a bit, for a given value of writing,” and “not much” respectively. Most non-math classes were “writing intensive classes,” meaning that they involved considerable amounts of putting your own words to paper, but grading was very little dependent on the fluency with which you did so.
Thanks, that’s about what I was expecting. In your own experience, to what extent is your grade dependent on the skills specific to your field, and to what extent is it dependent on extrinsic skills? Are you doing a BA, or are you doing graduate work?
Well, like if your field was physics, to what extent was your grade determined by skills you would use (and you would consider important to success in) the practice of physics as a theoretical or experimental activity? I don’t think I have a good idea of what these skills are, but I imagine math is an important one. And to what extent were your grades determined by skills like the writing of effective prose, which I take it we’re considering extrinsic to physical research as such?
I’d say that your grades in the core courses of an undergraduate degree would be pretty strongly determined by some combination of effort, conscientiousness, interest and information retention. If you can retain the material you’re taught in class and apply the required equations to it, and invest a high level of effort into all the assigned work while closely following the provided grading rubrics, you can get good grades without much writing fluency, and without much need for other intrinsic skills such as ability to come up with good original experiments or solid hypotheses to explain data.
In terms of writing quality, I’ve encountered journal articles I’d have been ashamed to have produced in middle school. I’ve often reflected that it might be an improvement to mandate “Writing for Scientists” classes, which teach clear and succinct written communication. The jargon barrier frequently serves to hide the fact that the authors of a paper aren’t very good at communicating their ideas, even to people who’re familiar with the specialized language of their field. This should be no surprise, since many people are bad at clear written communication, and a scientific education doesn’t do much to select for this ability.
Sure, it’s generally possible to read and extract the relevant information from a badly written article, but it makes the process of researching the literature considerably slower and more error-prone, so it’s not as if bad writing doesn’t come with practical costs
Of course, this runs into the same problem, that a person in, say, the 99.99th percentile of scientific ability and 40th percentile of writing ability is probably going to end up with a lower GPA than someone in the 98th percentile of scientific ability and the 90th of writing ability, although the former is almost certainly more valuable to their field.
Check the name and institution. Science is done in English, but not always by native English-speakers.
I took one at my undergraduate institution. It was a good idea but a poor execution- basically, you could only do so much in four months, and there’s too much diversity in required outputs (as different journals and fields have different formats). I did have enough pointed suggestions at the end of the class that I think widespread mediocre execution is possible, and with a clever professor the class can become good.
The issue is by no means exclusive to non-native speakers.
Having peer-edited papers from many fellow students throughout college, I was astonished not only by the low quality of writing, but the lack of improvement from first year to graduation. Of course, it’s possible that most people are simply innately incapable of writing above low standards and these students had hit their ceiling, but I don’t think there’s any basis to infer this given that they weren’t given any instruction or pressure to improve. Grading was only influenced by fluency of writing at the very bottom end, so there was very weak selection for writing ability.
Actually, I think our education system ought to put a lot more focus on teaching to write well at the level of middle and high school. The essays students are made to practice writing are poorly tailored to cultivate the sort of writing ability that students are likely to find useful in the future, and public education generally doesn’t offer students much other instruction in writing well.
Agreed that this is also an issue for natives, and that improvement from first year to graduation is low.
Agreed, and I think the ability and inclination to communicate well is actually a reasonable standard.
In Physics? Math? I’m not sure. Is anyone here doing an undergrad program in this fields? How much writing are you expected to do, and how dependent is your GPA on your writing ability?
I wasn’t claiming that this is currently the case in math or physics programs, but that it would be a consequence of mandating “Writing for Scientists” courses.
In my own science courses, the answers were “quite a bit, for a given value of writing,” and “not much” respectively. Most non-math classes were “writing intensive classes,” meaning that they involved considerable amounts of putting your own words to paper, but grading was very little dependent on the fluency with which you did so.
Thanks, that’s about what I was expecting. In your own experience, to what extent is your grade dependent on the skills specific to your field, and to what extent is it dependent on extrinsic skills? Are you doing a BA, or are you doing graduate work?
Could you clarify what you mean by field specific skills versus extrinsic skills?
I’ve completed my BSc, but haven’t applied to any graduate program.
Well, like if your field was physics, to what extent was your grade determined by skills you would use (and you would consider important to success in) the practice of physics as a theoretical or experimental activity? I don’t think I have a good idea of what these skills are, but I imagine math is an important one. And to what extent were your grades determined by skills like the writing of effective prose, which I take it we’re considering extrinsic to physical research as such?
I’d say that your grades in the core courses of an undergraduate degree would be pretty strongly determined by some combination of effort, conscientiousness, interest and information retention. If you can retain the material you’re taught in class and apply the required equations to it, and invest a high level of effort into all the assigned work while closely following the provided grading rubrics, you can get good grades without much writing fluency, and without much need for other intrinsic skills such as ability to come up with good original experiments or solid hypotheses to explain data.