In the star wars universe, the Jedis do not rule—and when they do rule, it is a bad mistake—dark side, betrayal, and so forth.
Luke is not born to be King, even though the story would make a lot more sense if he was. Indeed, the Star Wars universe is a particular example of the universal rule that you are, these days, not allowed to have a hero who is born to be King, unless, of course, like Pratchett’s Carrot, he wisely turns down the job.
I suppose they might let you have a woman who is born to be a warrior queen, warrior queens being counterstereotypical, but no heroes born to be King.
The lines you quote make sense in a society where the Jedi are a ruling aristocracy, or a powerful part of a ruling aristocracy, and Luke is born to be King. Since star wars is not set in such a society, they don’t make any sense.
How can Princess Leia be a princess, unless her father, and Luke’s father, is or was emperor? It is a gaping great plot hole produced by the ideology of equality. If she is a princess, he must be a prince, in which case winning should set things to right by restoring his family’s just and rightful authority.
At the very center of the Star Wars story is a gigantic plot hole produced by egalitarian doctrine.
There is a Princess Leia, yet strangely and illogically, no Prince Luke, because if there was a Prince Luke, there would have to be a King Luke or Emperor Luke, and a parent or grandparent who was King something or Queen something or emperor something, and that is just totally and completely politically incorrect.
How can Princess Leia be a princess, unless her father, and Luke’s father, is or was emperor? It is a gaping great plot hole produced by the ideology of equality. If she is a princess, he must be a prince, in which case winning should set things to right by restoring his family’s just and rightful authority. At the very center of the Star Wars story is a gigantic plot hole produced by egalitarian doctrine.
I’m not even a Warsie and I know this one. Luke and Leia were separated at birth and she was adopted by a royal family, making her a princess and him not.
you are, these days, not allowed to have a hero who is born to be King, unless, of course, like Pratchett’s Carrot, he wisely turns down the job.
If we for the sake of convenience define “these days” as anything since the production of A New Hope, I can think offhand of Severian, Garion, Tristran Thorn, Richard Rahl, Rand al’Thor, and anywhere up to three or four characters from the Song of Ice and Fire books depending on where you draw the lines for “king” and “hero”. None of these are obscure works; most are popular series including multiple bestsellers, and although fantasy is a low-status genre a couple of them have a high reputation in critical circles as well.
And that’s just literary characters, just protagonists, and just ones with a prophecy or hidden birthright attached to them. I’ve even been nice and skipped reworkings or adaptations of things like the Arthurian mythos. Relaxing any of those constraints would multiply that list manyfold, and I’m sure there are instances I’ve missed.
Severian, Garion, Tristan Thorn, Richard Rahl, Rand al’Thor,
To a limited extent this actually reinforces Sam’s point. Note that the last two of the characters mentioned occur in works that have frequently been accused of being reactionary and sexist. That said, I agree that Severian, Garion and Tristan Thorn are clear counterexamples.
Note that the last two of the characters mentioned occur in works that have frequently been accused of being reactionary and sexist.
For someone in the ‘reactosphere’ (as Mencius Moldbug calls it) ‘reactionary’ and ‘sexist’ isn’t an accusation but a praise. So the fact that several modern and popular series of books are reactionary and sexist (and proclaimed such) is evidence against sam’s position that modern books and films promote an egalitarian progressivist agenda.
True. But for that matter the entire genre’s been accused of being reactionary for pretty much the same reasons that ArisKatsaris applied to Star Wars, and I’m not entirely sure the accusers there are wrong. Point is that you can get away with it in the arena of modern fantasy (and make a lot of money in the getting away).
In the star wars universe, the Jedis do not rule—and when they do rule, it is a bad mistake—dark side, betrayal, and so forth.
True, but irrelevant. You talked about equality in the sense of interchangeability, not about equality in the sense of “one man, one vote”. I won’t accept you first making a wild claim, and then trimming it down to effectively “well by equality in the sense of interchangeability I meant ‘rule by divine right’ isn’t accepted”.
Point remains: Anakin is born super-special.
Point remains: Luke and Leia are born super-ultra-special.
They are not interchangeable with anyone else.
How can Princess Leia be a princess, unless her father, and Luke’s father, is or was emperor? It is a gaping great plot hole produced by the ideology of equality. [...] At the very center of the Star Wars story is a gigantic plot hole produced by egalitarian doctrine.
The “hole” made by calling her a princess was produced by monarchical fantasies, it was not in failing to make her a ruling princess. Unlike later-day “Princess Amidala”, for the purposes of the story Leia didn’t need to be anything other than a Senator, she was called a princess just to call back to the old fairy tales about tailor boys (or farmer boys, I guess) saving the realm and getting the princess—old fairy tales which were actually more egalitarian than modern-day fairy tales StarWars, since farmer boys and tailor’s sons grew up to earn the realm through cleverness and effort, but they didn’t always begin with special genes as in the StarWars movies.
The new trilogy not only makes Amidala both a princess and a ruler, it makes the super-duper innate specialness of special people even clearer, with prophecies about The One—same as Matrix has prophecies about The One.
I’m not going to downvote this comment because it does a much better job than your previous few comments in actually grappling with what other people are saying. I was tempted to upvote it, but if the comment had come from somene else I would not have done so, and I’m not that inclined to reward karma to the most-improved. You’ll probably appreciate the instincts against that.
That said, there are still simple factual issues and other problems with this post.
Indeed, the Star Wars universe is a particular example of the universal rule that you are, these days, not allowed to have a hero who is born to be King
“Chronicles of the Necromancer” would be the only the most recent popular fantasy series that comes to mind involving a hero born to be king. Another example is in the Abhorsen series where one of the main characters is the sleeping prince who is restored to his kingship. Now, you could point out that in both these series there are powerful females also. In the first example, the protagonists love interest a warrior princess. And in the second one the protagonists for most of the books are female necromancers. But that’s a distinct situation from what you are claiming here. The point is that having heros born to be kings is more than ok in the current literature.
The lines you quote make sense in a society where the Jedi are a ruling aristocracy, or a powerful part of a ruling aristocracy, and Luke is born to be King. Since star wars is not set in such a society, they don’t make any sense
I’m not sure I understand this. Do you mean to assert that the lines themselves don’t make sense? Or that they don’t make sense for the purposes that they are being used as an example? In any event, you seem to be using an extremely narrow notion of aristrocracy. The point is that merit, power and being a person that matters are all inherited in the blood in Star Wars. Whether such people are in charge of the government is a nitpicky distraction.
And if one really wants to go there, note that in the Expanded Star Wars universe Leia becomes the prime minister of the New Republic, and everyone who tries to unseat her is portrayed as evil or incompetent.
I agree, though I simply will not upvote posts primarily about Star Wars canon unless they are exceptionally brilliant. But I won’t necessarily downvote them, neither for that nor for involving the participants here.
It would be useful if sam attached confidence estimates to each statements. Then, he could admit he was wrong with “It is a gaping great plot hole produced by the ideology of equality.” and we could compare that to statements he gave similar confidence to.
In the star wars universe, the Jedis do not rule—and when they do rule, it is a bad mistake—dark side, betrayal, and so forth.
Luke is not born to be King, even though the story would make a lot more sense if he was. Indeed, the Star Wars universe is a particular example of the universal rule that you are, these days, not allowed to have a hero who is born to be King, unless, of course, like Pratchett’s Carrot, he wisely turns down the job.
I suppose they might let you have a woman who is born to be a warrior queen, warrior queens being counterstereotypical, but no heroes born to be King.
The lines you quote make sense in a society where the Jedi are a ruling aristocracy, or a powerful part of a ruling aristocracy, and Luke is born to be King. Since star wars is not set in such a society, they don’t make any sense.
How can Princess Leia be a princess, unless her father, and Luke’s father, is or was emperor? It is a gaping great plot hole produced by the ideology of equality. If she is a princess, he must be a prince, in which case winning should set things to right by restoring his family’s just and rightful authority.
At the very center of the Star Wars story is a gigantic plot hole produced by egalitarian doctrine.
There is a Princess Leia, yet strangely and illogically, no Prince Luke, because if there was a Prince Luke, there would have to be a King Luke or Emperor Luke, and a parent or grandparent who was King something or Queen something or emperor something, and that is just totally and completely politically incorrect.
I’m not even a Warsie and I know this one. Luke and Leia were separated at birth and she was adopted by a royal family, making her a princess and him not.
If we for the sake of convenience define “these days” as anything since the production of A New Hope, I can think offhand of Severian, Garion, Tristran Thorn, Richard Rahl, Rand al’Thor, and anywhere up to three or four characters from the Song of Ice and Fire books depending on where you draw the lines for “king” and “hero”. None of these are obscure works; most are popular series including multiple bestsellers, and although fantasy is a low-status genre a couple of them have a high reputation in critical circles as well.
And that’s just literary characters, just protagonists, and just ones with a prophecy or hidden birthright attached to them. I’ve even been nice and skipped reworkings or adaptations of things like the Arthurian mythos. Relaxing any of those constraints would multiply that list manyfold, and I’m sure there are instances I’ve missed.
To a limited extent this actually reinforces Sam’s point. Note that the last two of the characters mentioned occur in works that have frequently been accused of being reactionary and sexist. That said, I agree that Severian, Garion and Tristan Thorn are clear counterexamples.
For someone in the ‘reactosphere’ (as Mencius Moldbug calls it) ‘reactionary’ and ‘sexist’ isn’t an accusation but a praise. So the fact that several modern and popular series of books are reactionary and sexist (and proclaimed such) is evidence against sam’s position that modern books and films promote an egalitarian progressivist agenda.
True. But for that matter the entire genre’s been accused of being reactionary for pretty much the same reasons that ArisKatsaris applied to Star Wars, and I’m not entirely sure the accusers there are wrong. Point is that you can get away with it in the arena of modern fantasy (and make a lot of money in the getting away).
True, but irrelevant. You talked about equality in the sense of interchangeability, not about equality in the sense of “one man, one vote”. I won’t accept you first making a wild claim, and then trimming it down to effectively “well by equality in the sense of interchangeability I meant ‘rule by divine right’ isn’t accepted”.
Point remains: Anakin is born super-special. Point remains: Luke and Leia are born super-ultra-special. They are not interchangeable with anyone else.
The “hole” made by calling her a princess was produced by monarchical fantasies, it was not in failing to make her a ruling princess. Unlike later-day “Princess Amidala”, for the purposes of the story Leia didn’t need to be anything other than a Senator, she was called a princess just to call back to the old fairy tales about tailor boys (or farmer boys, I guess) saving the realm and getting the princess—old fairy tales which were actually more egalitarian than modern-day fairy tales StarWars, since farmer boys and tailor’s sons grew up to earn the realm through cleverness and effort, but they didn’t always begin with special genes as in the StarWars movies.
The new trilogy not only makes Amidala both a princess and a ruler, it makes the super-duper innate specialness of special people even clearer, with prophecies about The One—same as Matrix has prophecies about The One.
[Superfluous comment. Ignore this.]
I’m not going to downvote this comment because it does a much better job than your previous few comments in actually grappling with what other people are saying. I was tempted to upvote it, but if the comment had come from somene else I would not have done so, and I’m not that inclined to reward karma to the most-improved. You’ll probably appreciate the instincts against that.
That said, there are still simple factual issues and other problems with this post.
“Chronicles of the Necromancer” would be the only the most recent popular fantasy series that comes to mind involving a hero born to be king. Another example is in the Abhorsen series where one of the main characters is the sleeping prince who is restored to his kingship. Now, you could point out that in both these series there are powerful females also. In the first example, the protagonists love interest a warrior princess. And in the second one the protagonists for most of the books are female necromancers. But that’s a distinct situation from what you are claiming here. The point is that having heros born to be kings is more than ok in the current literature.
I’m not sure I understand this. Do you mean to assert that the lines themselves don’t make sense? Or that they don’t make sense for the purposes that they are being used as an example? In any event, you seem to be using an extremely narrow notion of aristrocracy. The point is that merit, power and being a person that matters are all inherited in the blood in Star Wars. Whether such people are in charge of the government is a nitpicky distraction.
And if one really wants to go there, note that in the Expanded Star Wars universe Leia becomes the prime minister of the New Republic, and everyone who tries to unseat her is portrayed as evil or incompetent.
Downvoting this and all the descendants per Kpier. Sorry folks.
In this context, this seems unproductive. Sam’s reply was more polite and more reasonable than many of his other comments.
I agree, though I simply will not upvote posts primarily about Star Wars canon unless they are exceptionally brilliant. But I won’t necessarily downvote them, neither for that nor for involving the participants here.
It would be useful if sam attached confidence estimates to each statements. Then, he could admit he was wrong with “It is a gaping great plot hole produced by the ideology of equality.” and we could compare that to statements he gave similar confidence to.