Because it’s not accompanied by the belief itself, only by the computational pattern combined with behavior. If we hypothetically could subtract the first-person belief (which we can’t), what would be left would be everything else but the belief itself.
if you claimed that the first-person recognition ((2)-belief) necessarily occurs whenever there’s something playing the functional role of a (1)-belief
That’s what I claimed, right.
Seems like you’d be begging the question in favor of functionalism
I don’t think so. That specific argument had a form of me illustrating how absurd it would be on the intuitive level. It doesn’t assume functionalism, it only appeals to our intuition.
I’m saying that no belief_2 exists in this scenario (where there is no pain) at all. Not that the person has a belief_2 that they aren’t in pain.
That doesn’t sound coherent—either I believe_2 I’m in pain, or I believe_2 I’m not.
I don’t find this compelling, because denying epiphenomenalism doesn’t require us to think that changing the first-person aspect of X alwayschanges the third-person aspect of some Y that X causally influences.
That’s true, but my claim was a little more specific than that.
The whole reason why given our actual brains our beliefs reliably track our subjective experiences is, the subjective experience is naturally coupled with some third-person aspect that tends to cause such beliefs. This no longer holds when we artificially intervene on the system as hypothesized.
Right, but why think it matters if some change occurred naturally or not? For the universe, everything is natural, for one thing.
Because it’s not accompanied by the belief itself, only by the computational pattern combined with behavior. If we hypothetically could subtract the first-person belief (which we can’t), what would be left would be everything else but the belief itself.
That’s what I claimed, right.
I don’t think so. That specific argument had a form of me illustrating how absurd it would be on the intuitive level. It doesn’t assume functionalism, it only appeals to our intuition.
That doesn’t sound coherent—either I believe_2 I’m in pain, or I believe_2 I’m not.
That’s true, but my claim was a little more specific than that.
Right, but why think it matters if some change occurred naturally or not? For the universe, everything is natural, for one thing.
Well… I guess we have to draw the line somewhere.