I’m a little surprised by how you view the subtext of the ice cream example. If I imagine myself in either role, I would not interpret Bryce as saying Ash shouldn’t like ice cream in some very base sense. I interpret conversations like that as meaning either:
1) “You might have a desire for X but you shouldn’t indulge that desire because it has net bad consequences”
or
2) “If you knew all the negative things that X causes, it would spoil your enjoyment of it and you wouldn’t be attracted to it anymore.”
or
3) “If you knew all the negative things that X causes, your hedonic attraction to the better world that not-x would create would outweigh your hedonic attraction to the experience of X.”
Those can all create some kind of unhealthy or manipulative dynamic but I don’t see them as the same thing you’re saying, which is more like 4) “it’s wrong and stupid to enjoy the physical sensation of eating ice cream.”
Do you agree with my reading that 1-3 are different from what you’re talking about, or do you think they’re included within it?
I agree that those are the thoughts at the surface-level of Bryce in those situations, and they are not the same as “it’s wrong/stupid to enjoy eating ice cream.”
But I think in many cases, they often do imply “and you are stupid/irrational if knowing these things does not spoil your enjoyment or shift your hedonic attractor.” And even if Bryce genuinely doesn’t feel that way, I hope they would still be very careful with their wording to avoid that implication.
Thanks, that clears up a lot for me! And it makes me think that the perspective you encourage has a lot of connections to other important habits of mind, like knowing how to question automatic thoughts and system 1 conclusions without beating yourself up for having them.
I’m a little surprised by how you view the subtext of the ice cream example. If I imagine myself in either role, I would not interpret Bryce as saying Ash shouldn’t like ice cream in some very base sense. I interpret conversations like that as meaning either:
1) “You might have a desire for X but you shouldn’t indulge that desire because it has net bad consequences”
or
2) “If you knew all the negative things that X causes, it would spoil your enjoyment of it and you wouldn’t be attracted to it anymore.”
or
3) “If you knew all the negative things that X causes, your hedonic attraction to the better world that not-x would create would outweigh your hedonic attraction to the experience of X.”
Those can all create some kind of unhealthy or manipulative dynamic but I don’t see them as the same thing you’re saying, which is more like 4) “it’s wrong and stupid to enjoy the physical sensation of eating ice cream.”
Do you agree with my reading that 1-3 are different from what you’re talking about, or do you think they’re included within it?
I agree that those are the thoughts at the surface-level of Bryce in those situations, and they are not the same as “it’s wrong/stupid to enjoy eating ice cream.”
But I think in many cases, they often do imply “and you are stupid/irrational if knowing these things does not spoil your enjoyment or shift your hedonic attractor.” And even if Bryce genuinely doesn’t feel that way, I hope they would still be very careful with their wording to avoid that implication.
Thanks, that clears up a lot for me! And it makes me think that the perspective you encourage has a lot of connections to other important habits of mind, like knowing how to question automatic thoughts and system 1 conclusions without beating yourself up for having them.