On lesswrong insisting a claim is unfalsifiable while simultaneously explaining how that claim can be falsified is more than sufficient cause to downvote.
That’s rather sad, if the community here thinks that the word “unfalsifiable” only refers to beliefs which are unfalsifiable in principle from the perspective of a competent rationalist, and that the word is not also used to refer to belief systems held by irrational people which are unfalsifiable from the insider/irrational perspective.
The fundamental epistemological sin is the same in each case, since both categories of belief are irrational in the sense that there is no good reason to favour the particular beliefs held over the unbounded number of other, equally unfalsifiable beliefs which explain the data equally well.
That said, I do find it curious that such misunderstandings seem to exclusively crop up in those posts where I criticise the beliefs of the seduction community. Those posts get massively downvoted compared to posts I make on any other topic, and from my insider perspective there is no difference in quality of posting.
consistent use of straw men and the insulting misrepresentation of a group of people you are opposed to.
There’s a philosophical joke that goes like this:
“Zabludowski has insinuated that my thesis that p is false, on the basis of alleged counterexamples. But these so- called “counterexamples” depend on construing my thesis that p in a way that it was obviously not intended—for I intended my thesis to have no counterexamples. Therefore p”.
It’s not clear to me at all that I have used straw men or misrepresented a group, and from my perspective it seems that it’s impossible to criticise any aspect of the seduction community or its beliefs without being accused of attacking a straw man.
They should not be persuasive and are not intended as such. Instead, in this case, it was an explicit rejection of the “My side is the default position and the burden of proof is on the other!” debating tactic. The subject of how to think correctly (vs debate effectively) is one of greater interest to me than seduction.
Perhaps we should drop this subtopic then, since it seems solely to be about your views of what you see as a particular debating tactic, and get back to the issue of what exactly the evidence is for the beliefs of the seduction community.
If we can agree that how to think correctly is the more interesting topic, then possibly we can agree to explore whether or not the seduction community are thinking correctly by means of examining their evidence.
That’s rather sad, if the community here thinks that the word “unfalsifiable” only refers to beliefs which are unfalsifiable in principle from the perspective of a competent rationalist, and that the word is not also used to refer to belief systems held by irrational people which are unfalsifiable from the insider/irrational perspective.
Then you should indeed be sad. An unfalsifiable claim is a claim that can not be falsified. Not only is it right there in the word it is a basic scientific principle. The people who present a claim happening to be irrational would be a separate issue.
Just say that the seduction community is universally or overwhelmingly irrational when it comes to handling counterevidence to their claims—and we can merrily disagree about the state of the universe. But unfalsifiable things can’t be falsified.
If we can agree that how to think correctly is the more interesting topic, then possibly we can agree to explore whether or not the seduction community are thinking correctly by means of examining their evidence.
I would update only slightly from the prior for “non-rationalists are dedicated to achieving a goal through training and practice”.
EDIT: In case the meaning isn’t clear—this translates to “They’re probably about the same as most folks are when they do stuff. Haven’t seen much to think they are better or worse.”
An obvious improvement would be to instead use “non-rationalists are dedicated to achieving a goal through training and practice, and find a system for doing so which is significantly superior to alternative, existing systems”.
It is no great praise of an exercise regime, for example, to say that those who follow it get fitter. The interesting question is whether that particular regime is better or worse than alternative exercise regimes.
However the problem with that question is that there are multiple competing strands of seduction theory, which is why any critic can be accused of attacking a straw man regardless of the points they make. So you need to specify multiple sub-questions of the form “Group A of non-rationalists were dedicated to achieving a goal through training and practice, and found a system for doing so which is significantly superior to alternative, existing systems”, “Group B of non-rationalists...” and so on for as many sub-types of seduction doctrine as you are prepared to acknowledge, where the truth of some groups’ doctrines precludes the truth of some other groups’ doctrines. As musical rationalists Dire Straits pointed out, if two guys say they’re Jesus then at least one of them must be wrong.
So then ideally we ask all of these people what evidence led them to fix the belief they hold that the methods of their group perform better than alternative, existing ways of improving your attractiveness. That way we could figure out which if any of them are right, or whether they are all wrong.
However I don’t seem to be able to get to that point. Since you position yourself as outside the seduction community and hence immune to requests for evidence, but as thoroughly informed about the seduction community and hence entitled to pass judgment on whether my comments are directed at straw men, there’s no way to explore the interesting question by engaging with you.
Edit to add: I see one of the ancestor posts has been pushed down to −3, the point at which general traffic will no longer see later posts. Based on previous experience I predict that N accounts who downvote or upvote all available posts along partisan lines will hit this subthread pushing all of wedrifid’s posts up by +N and all of my posts down by -N.
I actually agree mainly with you, but am downvoting both sides on the principle that I’m tired of listening to people argue back and forth about PUAs/Seduction communities.
That’s rather sad, if the community here thinks that the word “unfalsifiable” only refers to beliefs which are unfalsifiable in principle from the perspective of a competent rationalist, and that the word is not also used to refer to belief systems held by irrational people which are unfalsifiable from the insider/irrational perspective.
The fundamental epistemological sin is the same in each case, since both categories of belief are irrational in the sense that there is no good reason to favour the particular beliefs held over the unbounded number of other, equally unfalsifiable beliefs which explain the data equally well.
That said, I do find it curious that such misunderstandings seem to exclusively crop up in those posts where I criticise the beliefs of the seduction community. Those posts get massively downvoted compared to posts I make on any other topic, and from my insider perspective there is no difference in quality of posting.
There’s a philosophical joke that goes like this:
“Zabludowski has insinuated that my thesis that p is false, on the basis of alleged counterexamples. But these so- called “counterexamples” depend on construing my thesis that p in a way that it was obviously not intended—for I intended my thesis to have no counterexamples. Therefore p”.
Source
It’s not clear to me at all that I have used straw men or misrepresented a group, and from my perspective it seems that it’s impossible to criticise any aspect of the seduction community or its beliefs without being accused of attacking a straw man.
Perhaps we should drop this subtopic then, since it seems solely to be about your views of what you see as a particular debating tactic, and get back to the issue of what exactly the evidence is for the beliefs of the seduction community.
If we can agree that how to think correctly is the more interesting topic, then possibly we can agree to explore whether or not the seduction community are thinking correctly by means of examining their evidence.
Then you should indeed be sad. An unfalsifiable claim is a claim that can not be falsified. Not only is it right there in the word it is a basic scientific principle. The people who present a claim happening to be irrational would be a separate issue.
Just say that the seduction community is universally or overwhelmingly irrational when it comes to handling counterevidence to their claims—and we can merrily disagree about the state of the universe. But unfalsifiable things can’t be falsified.
I would update only slightly from the prior for “non-rationalists are dedicated to achieving a goal through training and practice”.
EDIT: In case the meaning isn’t clear—this translates to “They’re probably about the same as most folks are when they do stuff. Haven’t seen much to think they are better or worse.”
That seems to be a poorly-chosen prior.
An obvious improvement would be to instead use “non-rationalists are dedicated to achieving a goal through training and practice, and find a system for doing so which is significantly superior to alternative, existing systems”.
It is no great praise of an exercise regime, for example, to say that those who follow it get fitter. The interesting question is whether that particular regime is better or worse than alternative exercise regimes.
However the problem with that question is that there are multiple competing strands of seduction theory, which is why any critic can be accused of attacking a straw man regardless of the points they make. So you need to specify multiple sub-questions of the form “Group A of non-rationalists were dedicated to achieving a goal through training and practice, and found a system for doing so which is significantly superior to alternative, existing systems”, “Group B of non-rationalists...” and so on for as many sub-types of seduction doctrine as you are prepared to acknowledge, where the truth of some groups’ doctrines precludes the truth of some other groups’ doctrines. As musical rationalists Dire Straits pointed out, if two guys say they’re Jesus then at least one of them must be wrong.
So then ideally we ask all of these people what evidence led them to fix the belief they hold that the methods of their group perform better than alternative, existing ways of improving your attractiveness. That way we could figure out which if any of them are right, or whether they are all wrong.
However I don’t seem to be able to get to that point. Since you position yourself as outside the seduction community and hence immune to requests for evidence, but as thoroughly informed about the seduction community and hence entitled to pass judgment on whether my comments are directed at straw men, there’s no way to explore the interesting question by engaging with you.
Edit to add: I see one of the ancestor posts has been pushed down to −3, the point at which general traffic will no longer see later posts. Based on previous experience I predict that N accounts who downvote or upvote all available posts along partisan lines will hit this subthread pushing all of wedrifid’s posts up by +N and all of my posts down by -N.
I actually agree mainly with you, but am downvoting both sides on the principle that I’m tired of listening to people argue back and forth about PUAs/Seduction communities.