Justifying violence against an oppressed group, on the basis of some unobserved and ambiguous quality, is the definition of bigotry.
Have you interacted with a disabled human before? What it is it about them that you think merits less consideration? My best friend growing up was differently abled, at the cognitive capacity of a young child. But he is also probably the most praiseworthy individual I have ever met. Generous to a fault, forgiving even of those who had mistreated him (and there were many of those), and completely lacking in artifice. A world filled with animals such as he would be a good world indeed. So why should he receive any fewer rights than you or I? What is this amorphous quality that he is missing?
Factually, it is not true that human inequality is “socially destructive.” Human civilization has thrived for 10,000 years despite horrific caste systems. And even just a generation prior, disabled humans were systematically mistreated as our moral inferiors. Even lions of the left like Arthur Miller had no qualms about locking up their disabled children and throwing away the key.
Inequality is a terrible thing, if you are on the wrong side of the hierarchy. But there is nothing intrinsically destabilizing about bigotry. Far from it, prejudice against “outsiders” is our natural state.
I think you are technically wrong. A world filled with people at the cognitive capacity of a young child would include a lot of suffering. (Unless there would be also someone else to solve their problems.) Hunger, diseases, predators… and no ability to defend against them.
DxE, I have to ask, and I don’t mean to be hostile: are you using emotionally-charged, question-begging language deliberately (to act as intuition pumps, perhaps)? Would you be able to rephrase your comments in more neutral, objective language?
The language I use is deliberate. It accurately conveys my point of view, including normative judgments. I do not relish the idea of antagonizing anyone. However, the content of certain viewpoints is inherently antagonizing. If I were to factually state that someone were a rapist, for example, I could not phrase that in a neutral, objective way.
For what it’s worth, I actually love jkaufman.. He’s one of the smartest and most solid people I know. But his views on this subject are bigoted.
I see. However, I disagree that your comments accurately convey your point of view, or any point of view; there’s a lot of unpacking I’d have to ask you to do on e.g. the great-grandparent before I could understand exactly what you were saying; and I’m afraid I’m not sufficiently interested to try.
If I were to factually state that someone were a rapist, for example, I could not phrase that in a neutral, objective way.
Couldn’t you? I could. Observe:
Bob has, on several occasions, initiated and carried on sexual intercourse with an unwilling partner, knowing that the person in question was not willing, and understanding his actions to be opposed to the wishes of said person, as well as to the social norms of his society.
There you go. That is, if anything, too neutral; I could make it less verbose and more colloquial without much loss of neutrality; but it showcases my point, I think. If you believe you can’t phrase something in language that doesn’t sound like you’re trying to incite a crowd, you are probably not trying hard enough.
If you like (and only if you like), I could go through your response to jkaufman and point out where and how your choice of language makes it difficult to respond to your comments in any kind of logical or civilized manner. For now, I will say only:
Expressing your normative judgments is not very useful, nor very interesting to most people. What we’re looking for is for you to support those judgments with something. The mere fact that you think something is bad, really very bad, just no good… is not interesting. It’s not anything to talk about.
There’s a difference between making it seem morally neutral and not implying anything about its morality or lack thereof. What SaidAchmiz was trying to do is the latter.
jkaufman,
Justifying violence against an oppressed group, on the basis of some unobserved and ambiguous quality, is the definition of bigotry.
Have you interacted with a disabled human before? What it is it about them that you think merits less consideration? My best friend growing up was differently abled, at the cognitive capacity of a young child. But he is also probably the most praiseworthy individual I have ever met. Generous to a fault, forgiving even of those who had mistreated him (and there were many of those), and completely lacking in artifice. A world filled with animals such as he would be a good world indeed. So why should he receive any fewer rights than you or I? What is this amorphous quality that he is missing?
Factually, it is not true that human inequality is “socially destructive.” Human civilization has thrived for 10,000 years despite horrific caste systems. And even just a generation prior, disabled humans were systematically mistreated as our moral inferiors. Even lions of the left like Arthur Miller had no qualms about locking up their disabled children and throwing away the key.
Inequality is a terrible thing, if you are on the wrong side of the hierarchy. But there is nothing intrinsically destabilizing about bigotry. Far from it, prejudice against “outsiders” is our natural state.
I think you are technically wrong. A world filled with people at the cognitive capacity of a young child would include a lot of suffering. (Unless there would be also someone else to solve their problems.) Hunger, diseases, predators… and no ability to defend against them.
DxE, I have to ask, and I don’t mean to be hostile: are you using emotionally-charged, question-begging language deliberately (to act as intuition pumps, perhaps)? Would you be able to rephrase your comments in more neutral, objective language?
The language I use is deliberate. It accurately conveys my point of view, including normative judgments. I do not relish the idea of antagonizing anyone. However, the content of certain viewpoints is inherently antagonizing. If I were to factually state that someone were a rapist, for example, I could not phrase that in a neutral, objective way.
For what it’s worth, I actually love jkaufman.. He’s one of the smartest and most solid people I know. But his views on this subject are bigoted.
I see. However, I disagree that your comments accurately convey your point of view, or any point of view; there’s a lot of unpacking I’d have to ask you to do on e.g. the great-grandparent before I could understand exactly what you were saying; and I’m afraid I’m not sufficiently interested to try.
Couldn’t you? I could. Observe:
Bob has, on several occasions, initiated and carried on sexual intercourse with an unwilling partner, knowing that the person in question was not willing, and understanding his actions to be opposed to the wishes of said person, as well as to the social norms of his society.
There you go. That is, if anything, too neutral; I could make it less verbose and more colloquial without much loss of neutrality; but it showcases my point, I think. If you believe you can’t phrase something in language that doesn’t sound like you’re trying to incite a crowd, you are probably not trying hard enough.
If you like (and only if you like), I could go through your response to jkaufman and point out where and how your choice of language makes it difficult to respond to your comments in any kind of logical or civilized manner. For now, I will say only:
Expressing your normative judgments is not very useful, nor very interesting to most people. What we’re looking for is for you to support those judgments with something. The mere fact that you think something is bad, really very bad, just no good… is not interesting. It’s not anything to talk about.
So what you are demonstrating is that it is possible (and apparently, in your eyes, desirable) to whitewash rape and make it seem morally neutral.
No thanks.
There’s a difference between making it seem morally neutral and not implying anything about its morality or lack thereof. What SaidAchmiz was trying to do is the latter.