Well, first, maybe in academic settings, what is the usage most commonly accepted and understood in social science?
And second, though there’s no one authority, I want to know what usage(s) is most commonly understood or widespread broadly (even outside academia) by the public.
And if popular usage conflicts with it (not to say that it’s wrong, that’s just usage), I also want to know. Just like how “anti-social”can describe introverted, asocial people in popular speech but in psychology or sociology mean actively harmful or adversarial to society.
I’m actually surprised the answer to this question is not made more explicit (is an ingroup something you choose for yourself or not?), in many articles or blogs, for all the popularity that ingroup vs. outgroup as terms made it into the public setting from more academic terms. It makes a big difference conceptually if self-identification matters or if it is categorization by others, I would think.
Well, I thought the rationality-and-adjacent community emphasizes and would be a good place to clarify and disentangle concepts and meanings. These are major places, on blogs etc., where ingroup and outgroup are popularly used online.
And I don’t mean to bring too much whataboutism into this, but I find it noteworthy that of criticism of two posts that I got recently downvoted for, one seemed to center around not enough explicitness and usage of common language (over the term “stereotype”) but the other about asking for too much explicitness (over the term “ïngroup”).
If someone uses a term, it makes sense to ask them what they mean with the term. Discussing terms in a vaccum is generally not productive.
Thomas Kuhn makes the point that physicists and chemists use different notions of what “molecule” means. That’s in hard sciences. Different scientific paradigms usually operationlize terms differently.
There are likely plenty of different academic disciplines that likely use the term “ingroups” / “outgroups”. There’s a good chance that many of them have their own operationalizing and some field likely even have multiple ones.
If you ask what’s concept of molecule is the most frequent we have to count physics papers and papers by chemists. You likely get into some problems because some papers aren’t specific about their notion. You likely can write a academic paper about it in history of science and philosophy or in linguistics but you wouldn’t write that paper in physics or chemistry.
And I don’t mean to bring too much whataboutism into this, but I find it noteworthy that of criticism of two posts that I got recently downvoted for, one seemed to center around not enough explicitness and usage of common language
I asked you to move from focusing on words to focusing on empiric reality. Your post has the same problem. If you made a post asking “What do people mean when they say ‘tree’ without saying much about why that’s a useful question you are likely going to get downvoted on LessWrong. On the other hand a post like https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/fRwdkop6tyhi3d22L/there-s-no-such-thing-as-a-tree-phylogenetically says interesting things about the concept of ‘tree’.
I will admit my goal was primarily more about the second, about popular usage precisely because I perceived a mismatch with the “self-identity” emphasis which (many) more academic sources seem to focus on.
I wanted to interrogate if this mismatch fit people’s perceptions and the usage on blogs, online and in related circles.
And also if it had any implication for clearer thinking when conflicting usages arise between people talking about ingroups and outgroups.
Well, first, maybe in academic settings, what is the usage most commonly accepted and understood in social science?
And second, though there’s no one authority, I want to know what usage(s) is most commonly understood or widespread broadly (even outside academia) by the public.
And if popular usage conflicts with it (not to say that it’s wrong, that’s just usage), I also want to know. Just like how “anti-social”can describe introverted, asocial people in popular speech but in psychology or sociology mean actively harmful or adversarial to society.
I’m actually surprised the answer to this question is not made more explicit (is an ingroup something you choose for yourself or not?), in many articles or blogs, for all the popularity that ingroup vs. outgroup as terms made it into the public setting from more academic terms. It makes a big difference conceptually if self-identification matters or if it is categorization by others, I would think.
Why are you surprised that common usage of terms isn’t very explicit? That’s frequently how people use words in common language.
Well, I thought the rationality-and-adjacent community emphasizes and would be a good place to clarify and disentangle concepts and meanings. These are major places, on blogs etc., where ingroup and outgroup are popularly used online.
And I don’t mean to bring too much whataboutism into this, but I find it noteworthy that of criticism of two posts that I got recently downvoted for, one seemed to center around not enough explicitness and usage of common language (over the term “stereotype”) but the other about asking for too much explicitness (over the term “ïngroup”).
If someone uses a term, it makes sense to ask them what they mean with the term. Discussing terms in a vaccum is generally not productive.
Thomas Kuhn makes the point that physicists and chemists use different notions of what “molecule” means. That’s in hard sciences. Different scientific paradigms usually operationlize terms differently.
There are likely plenty of different academic disciplines that likely use the term “ingroups” / “outgroups”. There’s a good chance that many of them have their own operationalizing and some field likely even have multiple ones.
If you ask what’s concept of molecule is the most frequent we have to count physics papers and papers by chemists. You likely get into some problems because some papers aren’t specific about their notion. You likely can write a academic paper about it in history of science and philosophy or in linguistics but you wouldn’t write that paper in physics or chemistry.
I asked you to move from focusing on words to focusing on empiric reality. Your post has the same problem. If you made a post asking “What do people mean when they say ‘tree’ without saying much about why that’s a useful question you are likely going to get downvoted on LessWrong. On the other hand a post like https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/fRwdkop6tyhi3d22L/there-s-no-such-thing-as-a-tree-phylogenetically says interesting things about the concept of ‘tree’.
Why are you asking the question? If your goal is to understand the underlying science, why not go directly to the science and read papers?
I will admit my goal was primarily more about the second, about popular usage precisely because I perceived a mismatch with the “self-identity” emphasis which (many) more academic sources seem to focus on.
I wanted to interrogate if this mismatch fit people’s perceptions and the usage on blogs, online and in related circles.
And also if it had any implication for clearer thinking when conflicting usages arise between people talking about ingroups and outgroups.