On the contrary, I always liked sports that compensate for mental work. Also, physical activity can be healthy and, as they say, mens sana in corpore sano… (For example, running is said to be healthy for the brain and I found it very useful for forcing my brain to pause. One problem is that in the long term running destroys your knees, so after two marathons I will reduce long-distance running in the future.)
This has some tradition, for example Alan Turing (maybe the greatest computer scientist of all time?) and Bobby Fischer (maybe the best chess player of all time?) did a lot of sports and Fischer said that he wanted to keep in shape for chess explaining that one needs a lot of stamina for playing four to five hours.
So, I think rationalist sports should support the more important mental activities, e.g. by improving health.
For a lot of people running should be fine for their knees if done properly.
As far as I can tell, running is most likely to damage your knees if you’re (a) very big/heavy (b) have poor running technique (most people don’t learn to run properly/efficiently) (c) run a lot on bad surfaces (avoid running extensively on surfaces that are banked, or where you may step in potholes!) (d) have a genetic predisposition to knee problems or have brought on ostearthritis-type conditions through poor diet (happens sometimes with exercise anorexics).
As a past competitive runner, I’ve spent a lot of time with running “lifers” (>10,000 miles on the legs) and knee problems don’t seem to be particularly common (though obviously there are some selection effects there). Anecdotally, I have no knee problems after 6 years of 100mile/week training and most of my sports friends who do have them as a result of acute injuries (usually soccer).
That said, there’s enough weak evidence to suggest that this kind of heavy aerobic training may not be good for long-term health and longevity to cause me to reduce my running to 20-30 mins/day (supplemented by weight training).
I actually did not want to go too deep into discussing specific sports and wait for another 24 hours, but...
I never had actual problems with the knees myself—I’m neather heavy, nor run that much at all (100mile/week for 6 years is extremely impressive!), also I eat helthy and think my technique to be okay. But I am very young. My grandfather, who has been doing a lot of sports his whole life (to my knowledge he still rides his bicycle for 50 miles a day or something at age 80) had some knee problems and therefore changed from relatively serious marathon running (best time ~2:40) to swimming and bicycling. Of course these are just anecdotes that do not prove anything. I would be very interested in the current state of research on the matter.
For me the most important argument against long-distance running is that it seems to conflict with general fitness. After running my second marathon I pretty much sucked at everything else, even riding a bicycle...
Also, long-distance running takes a lot of time to practice, so now I changed to less than daily interval training, also supplemented by weight training.
Some emerging concerns I’m aware of for really serious runners: heart problems due to thickened heart wall, skin cancer (just due to being out in the sun so much, sweating off sunscreen).
Potential causes for concern: lots of cortisol production from hard aerobic exercise, inflammation.
I keep wondering whether sports where the major point is overriding the desire to stop are actually a bad idea—that desire to stop might have evolved to be protective.
You may put a high value on physical activity, but my impression is that the averaged community as a whole does not. (It’s not a socially acceptable thing to say directly that one does not value physical activity, but reading between the lines...)
Sure, however, most LWers put a high value on rationality and as our brain has some impact on our rationality (any dualist around?), our body has some impact on our brain and physical activity has some (positive) impact on our body, it seems rational to me to engage in some physical activity rather than “waisting your intelligence” on playing chess (which I also did a lot).
I haven’t researched this, but I was told by a neuroscientist/martial arts-practicing friend that particular sports (like martial arts) where you have to practice a very wide and varied range of technical motions and thus challenge/develop neuromuscular systems widely may be particularly good for general brain health and plasticity (in the same way that varying your routine widely, etc, apparently is). Seems plausible, but I repeat that I haven’t researched it.
Big wodge of evidence about karate in particular (not martial arts in general) being unhealthy.
A lot of it is about karate masters—it’s quite possible that if you stop when karate starts seeming like it’s bad for you, it’s not all that destructive.
I’ve poked around a little to see whether belly-dancing and tap-dancing (complex movement of very different kinds) increase longevity, but haven’t turned up anything.
This probably wouldn’t be an issue for karate, but a lot of high-level judo and jujitsu people in the last century died of stroke because blood chokes ( a major part of jujitsu technique) put unusual loads on the cardiovascular system. The modern consensus is not to practice them on people over forty-five or so, or with existing cardio issues.
our body has some impact on our brain and physical activity has some (positive) impact on our body, it seems rational to me to engage in some physical activity rather than “waisting your intelligence” on playing chess (which I also did a lot).
Huh? In the absence of further evidence I’d think the best way to get better at abstract reasoning is to practice abstract reasoning, which chess is going to be better at than sports. Sure, sport has effects on your brain, but so does chess.
The positive effects of chess may be higher, but I presume that the average rationalist or LWer practices 8 hours of abstract reasoning a day, simply by doing their job. Let us think about Bobby Fischer. He probably practiced at least 10 hours a day—maybe then another hour of chess did not have an impact as positive as an hour of tennis, swimming etc. At least, he did not think so.
The situation is of course very different, if you are a professional athlete. Then some hours of chess in the free time is (probably) a better way to train your brain, but so would be reading a book about AI, rationality, etc.
All I am saying is that the time you can improve your mental abilities by thinking about some hard problems is limited and above a certain threshold (maybe 8h a day, maybe a lot more or less depending on the kind of activities, the specific person etc.) it might be better to do something else, like sleep, go for a walk, listen to music or engage in some physical activity.
Here is some further evidence that physical activity might have a positive impact on your brain: (I neither have the time nor the competence to evaluate the quality of these papers; also I hope that they’re visible from outside a university network)
I don’t think that there’s a consensus. I think there are a bunch of people who do understand that the academic consensus is that physical activity is very valuable and therefore value sport. There are other people who don’t identify themselves with their body and don’t value physical activity.
I think the second group simply holds irrational beliefs on the matter.
It would be interesting to get a relevant question into the next census.
On the contrary, I always liked sports that compensate for mental work. Also, physical activity can be healthy and, as they say, mens sana in corpore sano… (For example, running is said to be healthy for the brain and I found it very useful for forcing my brain to pause. One problem is that in the long term running destroys your knees, so after two marathons I will reduce long-distance running in the future.)
This has some tradition, for example Alan Turing (maybe the greatest computer scientist of all time?) and Bobby Fischer (maybe the best chess player of all time?) did a lot of sports and Fischer said that he wanted to keep in shape for chess explaining that one needs a lot of stamina for playing four to five hours.
So, I think rationalist sports should support the more important mental activities, e.g. by improving health.
Does running destroy everyone’s knees? My impression is that it’s risky for knees, but not everyone takes damage.
I remember the existence of an article in Runner’s World long ago where they interviewed runners who hadn’t taken damage.
The comments to Running with the Whole Body have some people who say the Feldenkrais work in the book protected their knees.
For a lot of people running should be fine for their knees if done properly.
As far as I can tell, running is most likely to damage your knees if you’re (a) very big/heavy (b) have poor running technique (most people don’t learn to run properly/efficiently) (c) run a lot on bad surfaces (avoid running extensively on surfaces that are banked, or where you may step in potholes!) (d) have a genetic predisposition to knee problems or have brought on ostearthritis-type conditions through poor diet (happens sometimes with exercise anorexics).
As a past competitive runner, I’ve spent a lot of time with running “lifers” (>10,000 miles on the legs) and knee problems don’t seem to be particularly common (though obviously there are some selection effects there). Anecdotally, I have no knee problems after 6 years of 100mile/week training and most of my sports friends who do have them as a result of acute injuries (usually soccer).
That said, there’s enough weak evidence to suggest that this kind of heavy aerobic training may not be good for long-term health and longevity to cause me to reduce my running to 20-30 mins/day (supplemented by weight training).
I actually did not want to go too deep into discussing specific sports and wait for another 24 hours, but...
I never had actual problems with the knees myself—I’m neather heavy, nor run that much at all (100mile/week for 6 years is extremely impressive!), also I eat helthy and think my technique to be okay. But I am very young. My grandfather, who has been doing a lot of sports his whole life (to my knowledge he still rides his bicycle for 50 miles a day or something at age 80) had some knee problems and therefore changed from relatively serious marathon running (best time ~2:40) to swimming and bicycling. Of course these are just anecdotes that do not prove anything. I would be very interested in the current state of research on the matter.
For me the most important argument against long-distance running is that it seems to conflict with general fitness. After running my second marathon I pretty much sucked at everything else, even riding a bicycle...
Also, long-distance running takes a lot of time to practice, so now I changed to less than daily interval training, also supplemented by weight training.
Some emerging concerns I’m aware of for really serious runners: heart problems due to thickened heart wall, skin cancer (just due to being out in the sun so much, sweating off sunscreen). Potential causes for concern: lots of cortisol production from hard aerobic exercise, inflammation.
I keep wondering whether sports where the major point is overriding the desire to stop are actually a bad idea—that desire to stop might have evolved to be protective.
You may put a high value on physical activity, but my impression is that the averaged community as a whole does not. (It’s not a socially acceptable thing to say directly that one does not value physical activity, but reading between the lines...)
Sure, however, most LWers put a high value on rationality and as our brain has some impact on our rationality (any dualist around?), our body has some impact on our brain and physical activity has some (positive) impact on our body, it seems rational to me to engage in some physical activity rather than “waisting your intelligence” on playing chess (which I also did a lot).
I haven’t researched this, but I was told by a neuroscientist/martial arts-practicing friend that particular sports (like martial arts) where you have to practice a very wide and varied range of technical motions and thus challenge/develop neuromuscular systems widely may be particularly good for general brain health and plasticity (in the same way that varying your routine widely, etc, apparently is). Seems plausible, but I repeat that I haven’t researched it.
Big wodge of evidence about karate in particular (not martial arts in general) being unhealthy.
A lot of it is about karate masters—it’s quite possible that if you stop when karate starts seeming like it’s bad for you, it’s not all that destructive.
I’ve poked around a little to see whether belly-dancing and tap-dancing (complex movement of very different kinds) increase longevity, but haven’t turned up anything.
This probably wouldn’t be an issue for karate, but a lot of high-level judo and jujitsu people in the last century died of stroke because blood chokes ( a major part of jujitsu technique) put unusual loads on the cardiovascular system. The modern consensus is not to practice them on people over forty-five or so, or with existing cardio issues.
Fascinating, thank you for this!
You’re welcome. I keep hoping someone with more knowledge of statistics than I’ve got will take a look at the karate study.
Huh? In the absence of further evidence I’d think the best way to get better at abstract reasoning is to practice abstract reasoning, which chess is going to be better at than sports. Sure, sport has effects on your brain, but so does chess.
The positive effects of chess may be higher, but I presume that the average rationalist or LWer practices 8 hours of abstract reasoning a day, simply by doing their job. Let us think about Bobby Fischer. He probably practiced at least 10 hours a day—maybe then another hour of chess did not have an impact as positive as an hour of tennis, swimming etc. At least, he did not think so.
The situation is of course very different, if you are a professional athlete. Then some hours of chess in the free time is (probably) a better way to train your brain, but so would be reading a book about AI, rationality, etc.
All I am saying is that the time you can improve your mental abilities by thinking about some hard problems is limited and above a certain threshold (maybe 8h a day, maybe a lot more or less depending on the kind of activities, the specific person etc.) it might be better to do something else, like sleep, go for a walk, listen to music or engage in some physical activity.
Here is some further evidence that physical activity might have a positive impact on your brain: (I neither have the time nor the competence to evaluate the quality of these papers; also I hope that they’re visible from outside a university network)
Cotman, Carl W.; Engesser-Cesar, Christie: Exercise Enhances and Protects Brain Function. http://journals.lww.com/acsm-essr/Abstract/2002/04000/Exercise_Enhances_and_Protects_Brain_Function.6.aspx
Cotman, Carl W. , Berchtold, Nicole C., Christie, Lori-Ann: Exercise builds brain health: key roles of growth factor cascades and inflammation. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0166223607001786#
Colcombe, Stanley J., Erickson, Kirk I., Raz, Naftali, Webb, Andrew G., Cohen, Neal J., McAuley, Edward, Kramer, Arthur F.: Aerobic Fitness Reduces Brain Tissue Loss in Aging Humans. http://biomedgerontology.oxfordjournals.org/content/58/2/M176.short
Google Scholar finds thousands of such articles.
I don’t think that there’s a consensus. I think there are a bunch of people who do understand that the academic consensus is that physical activity is very valuable and therefore value sport. There are other people who don’t identify themselves with their body and don’t value physical activity.
I think the second group simply holds irrational beliefs on the matter.
It would be interesting to get a relevant question into the next census.