This argument works equally well when you replace “kicking dogs” with “playing violent video games” or “being an atheist in a place where you are expected to be a religious believer”. But I would guess that most people here do not see it as a valid reason to stop those things.
I don’t claim that not kicking dogs is a universal moral imperative. I claim that having some internal feature that dissuades you from kicking dogs means I will like and trust you more, and be more inclined to cooperate with you in a variety of social circumstances. This is not because I like dogs, but because that feature probably has some bearing on how you treat humans, and I am a human, and so are all the people I like.
I obviously can’t directly inspect the landscape of your internal features to see if “don’t needlessly hurt things” is in there, but if I see you kicking a dog, I’m going to infer that it’s not.
Again, that can be said of violent video games or atheism. Or to generalize it a bit, it applies to putting conformity above individualism. If I have some internal feature that leads me to do exactly the things you like, you will like and trust me more and be more inclined to cooperate with me. This is true whether those things are “don’t kick dogs”, “don’t play violent video games”, “believe in God”, “be heterosexual”, or “go and kill members of the outgroup”. It doesn’t matter whether God actually exists for this to be true.
It is a property of the way human brains work that a human who kicks dogs in likely to be cruel in other ways. Similar arguments may apply to some of the items on your list although the amount varies by item and many are currently subject to mind-killing debate.
I think we’re talking past each other here. I’m not talking about how to cooperate with anybody, or how to cooperate in a value-hostile social environment. I’m talking about how I can cooperate with people I want to cooperate with.
I’m talking about that too. For slightly different values of “you”, where “you” want to cooperate with fellow religious believers because you think they are more likely to share your desires and values.
Well if we’re talking about that version of “me”, why not talk about the version of “me” who’s a member of the International Dog-Kicking Association? For any given virtue you can posit some social context were that virtue is or is not desirable. I’m not sure what that accomplishes.
The International Dog-Kicking Association is something you just made up, so the fact that a rule fails when applied to it doesn’t mean the rule will cause any problems in real life. Religion actually exists.
This argument works equally well when you replace “kicking dogs” with “playing violent video games” or “being an atheist in a place where you are expected to be a religious believer”. But I would guess that most people here do not see it as a valid reason to stop those things.
I don’t claim that not kicking dogs is a universal moral imperative. I claim that having some internal feature that dissuades you from kicking dogs means I will like and trust you more, and be more inclined to cooperate with you in a variety of social circumstances. This is not because I like dogs, but because that feature probably has some bearing on how you treat humans, and I am a human, and so are all the people I like.
I obviously can’t directly inspect the landscape of your internal features to see if “don’t needlessly hurt things” is in there, but if I see you kicking a dog, I’m going to infer that it’s not.
Again, that can be said of violent video games or atheism. Or to generalize it a bit, it applies to putting conformity above individualism. If I have some internal feature that leads me to do exactly the things you like, you will like and trust me more and be more inclined to cooperate with me. This is true whether those things are “don’t kick dogs”, “don’t play violent video games”, “believe in God”, “be heterosexual”, or “go and kill members of the outgroup”. It doesn’t matter whether God actually exists for this to be true.
It is a property of the way human brains work that a human who kicks dogs in likely to be cruel in other ways. Similar arguments may apply to some of the items on your list although the amount varies by item and many are currently subject to mind-killing debate.
I think we’re talking past each other here. I’m not talking about how to cooperate with anybody, or how to cooperate in a value-hostile social environment. I’m talking about how I can cooperate with people I want to cooperate with.
I’m talking about that too. For slightly different values of “you”, where “you” want to cooperate with fellow religious believers because you think they are more likely to share your desires and values.
Well if we’re talking about that version of “me”, why not talk about the version of “me” who’s a member of the International Dog-Kicking Association? For any given virtue you can posit some social context were that virtue is or is not desirable. I’m not sure what that accomplishes.
The International Dog-Kicking Association is something you just made up, so the fact that a rule fails when applied to it doesn’t mean the rule will cause any problems in real life. Religion actually exists.
I really don’t know what we’re actually disagreeing about here, so I’m going to tap out. Have a nice evening.
(If it’s not evening where you are yet, then have a tolerable rest of the day, and then have a nice evening)