The religious progressives were the predecessors of today’s progressives, so today’s progressives can take credit for abolitionism, though they are embarrassed to do so, since they do not wish to recall their Christian past. They were already ditching the New Testament for its horribly reactionary position on slavery and marriage, and while they purported to say “Jesus is Lord”, they were already demoting him from God to chief community organizer. As Mencius argues, as recently as the 1940s, the predecessors of today’s progressives identified themselves as explicitly Christian, though when they finally threw Jesus under the bus and allowed the Jews in to join them, it was in fact less of a change than one might expect.
Mencius argues that they finally openly ditched Jesus so that they could impose their religion in the schools without running afoul of the first amendment, though perhaps letting the Jews into an explicitly progressive establishment also had something to do with it.
Why is this so heavily downvoted without a counterargument?
The notion that modern American progressivism is sociologically or memetically speaking the descendant of various Christian religious groups seems plausible and several points speak in its favour (including the heavily upvoted father of this comment).
I find this voting pattern especially strange considering that Mencius Moldbug is read by quite a few people on Lesswrong so the theory shouldn’t be that shocking in itself and people are generally quite detached and reasonable when discussing even controversial issues here (with the exception of gender relations).
Why is this so heavily downvoted without a counterargument?
What counterargument? What factual point is sam actually making? That today’s progressives (I don’t know how he defines the category—everyone who voted for Obama or Nader?) are embarrassed to take credit for abolitionism because they don’t wish to recall their Christian past?
How does one argue against that, by showing electroencephalographs of progressives that reveal the embarrassment zones of the brain don’t light up when progressives think about the abolitionist movement? It seems to me that the person making the claim should provide the evidence for this “embarrassment”.
sam doesn’t make arguments, he just sprays insults all over the place. Even when he makes specific claims, (perhaps progressive organization did stop identifying as Christian at a specific point of time, perhaps it was politically motivated) he uses the most insulting manner of expressing himself he can think of. “threw Jesus under the bus”—and he still doesn’t offer any actual evidence that can be discussed or analyzed, he just makes the claim.
sam has to learn to be civil, and provide evidence.
sam doesn’t make arguments, he just sprays insults all over the place
These aren’t mutually exclusive. I upvote many of his comments. Perhaps one in thirty simply deserve upvoting, one in fifteen because I have lower standards for him.
he uses the most insulting manner of expressing himself he can think of
Voting with lower standards makes sense if you think he is salvageable and want him to stick around—but that is not usually how we deal with extremely irrational posters.
He’s also provided me with enough evidence that he is not in the business of seeking truth that I have little reason to think even is reasonable-sounding points correlate with the truth. Even outside sources can be cherry-picked. If it were the case that everything here got fact checked or that we could effectively discount the evidence he provides proportionate to our estimation of his reliability this wouldn’t be a problem. But as time is a limited resource and we are not perfect Bayesian reasoners it is bad epistemic hygiene to encourage him to stick around. It is worse epistemic hygiene to lower our voting standards for him.
Not to mention the fact that people can’t seem to keep themselves from feeding the troll so we end up spending our time talking about whether or not conservatives have ever reinvented language to benefit themselves—as if that wasn’t already obvious to everyone who hasn’t been turned into a memetic zombie.
Sources are OK evidence, people bringing sources are better evidence. When those advocating banning chimp testing focus on cases decades old, that tells me no similar case has happened recently. I don’t assume that that case is typical of all chimp experiments, past and present, instead I learn the contrary.
If I find some study indicating that colleges discriminate against high school ROTC members, I don’t really have much of an idea if what I stumbled upon is the strongest evidence for that. If sam tells me about it, I am confident no reliable study showing more discrimination has been conducted.
This requires a model of the poster that not everyone reading comments will have. That can be solved by downvoting such posters to indicate their untrustworthiness.
But as I said humans are not perfect Bayesian reasoners and are not good at adjusting for unreliable speakers. We almost always either adjust too far and reverse stupidity or don’t discount enough and let cherry picked sources or skewed interpretations sneak into our brains. We’ll update without even noticing.
This seems like a selective application of a universal objection. “We almost always either adjust too far and reverse stupidity or don’t discount enough,” makes your reason technically not a universal objection, just an objection to learning anything from badly biased people, but this might be a confabulation added to the universal “humans are not perfect Bayesian reasoners”.
There is a difference between suboptimal updating and updating in ways that don’t correlate with the truth. My point is that badly biased posters may cause us to do the latter. But this is really tangential to the main thrust of my argument. Even (if) you can learn things (from) the occasional source Sam cites that seems very unlikely to make up for the rest of his noise. Well-Kept Gardens Die by Pacifism.
Even you can learn things about the occasional source Sam cites
To be read: Even if you can learn about things from the occasional source Sam cites?
WKGDbP would be squarely on point if I had implied there was anything bad about condemning, downvoting unto hiddenness, censoring, banning, or the like, that Sam had net negative value, and that the evils of censorship were what was preventing me from harsher criticism of his comments.
As it is only the first few paragraphs of that are applicable. I concede I may be succumbing to the bias of valuing known, tangible gains over unknown, intangible but probably greater losses. I think Sam has net positive value here, but your argument he is deterring more valuable people from joining is important.
I think the most important landmark in the failure scenario described is “then another fool joins, and the two fools begin talking to each other...”
To be read: Even if you can learn about things from the occasional source Sam cites?
Correct. And edited.
As it is only the first few paragraphs of that are applicable. I concede I may be succumbing to the bias of valuing known, tangible gains over unknown, intangible but probably greater losses. I think Sam has net positive value here, but your argument he is deterring more valuable people from joining is important.
I’m not sure you’re thinking about your information diet economically. Any minute you spend reading sam0345 or an indignant but obvious reply to him is a minute you could have spent reading something better. What make Less Wrong a special place is the ratio of good comments to bad not the total amount of insight gained by reading every single comment.
Yes, I’ve upvoted a couple of his comments too. A couple others got downvotes from me instead. It basically depends on whether he can focus himself on the argument, instead of the insults.
I agree both on the memetical relation between Christianity and progressivism, and on the likely receptiveness of LW to this idea. My guess is that most of sam’s downvotes are not for the intellectual content of his/her postings but for their style, that seems intent at scoring political points as opposed to finding truth.
I’ve down voted sam0345 before for similar reasons. This post didn’t strike me as that bad. My intuition puts bad style and good ideas to be somewhere on the −3 to +1 scale karma wise.
I suppose LW is sensitive to repeated misbehaviour. Either that or we let ourselves be affected quite strongly on how any particular comment is judged by who wrote it.
The religious progressives were the predecessors of today’s progressives, so today’s progressives can take credit for abolitionism, though they are embarrassed to do so, since they do not wish to recall their Christian past. They were already ditching the New Testament for its horribly reactionary position on slavery and marriage, and while they purported to say “Jesus is Lord”, they were already demoting him from God to chief community organizer. As Mencius argues, as recently as the 1940s, the predecessors of today’s progressives identified themselves as explicitly Christian, though when they finally threw Jesus under the bus and allowed the Jews in to join them, it was in fact less of a change than one might expect.
Mencius argues that they finally openly ditched Jesus so that they could impose their religion in the schools without running afoul of the first amendment, though perhaps letting the Jews into an explicitly progressive establishment also had something to do with it.
Why is this so heavily downvoted without a counterargument?
The notion that modern American progressivism is sociologically or memetically speaking the descendant of various Christian religious groups seems plausible and several points speak in its favour (including the heavily upvoted father of this comment).
I find this voting pattern especially strange considering that Mencius Moldbug is read by quite a few people on Lesswrong so the theory shouldn’t be that shocking in itself and people are generally quite detached and reasonable when discussing even controversial issues here (with the exception of gender relations).
What counterargument? What factual point is sam actually making? That today’s progressives (I don’t know how he defines the category—everyone who voted for Obama or Nader?) are embarrassed to take credit for abolitionism because they don’t wish to recall their Christian past?
How does one argue against that, by showing electroencephalographs of progressives that reveal the embarrassment zones of the brain don’t light up when progressives think about the abolitionist movement? It seems to me that the person making the claim should provide the evidence for this “embarrassment”.
sam doesn’t make arguments, he just sprays insults all over the place. Even when he makes specific claims, (perhaps progressive organization did stop identifying as Christian at a specific point of time, perhaps it was politically motivated) he uses the most insulting manner of expressing himself he can think of. “threw Jesus under the bus”—and he still doesn’t offer any actual evidence that can be discussed or analyzed, he just makes the claim.
sam has to learn to be civil, and provide evidence.
I downvoted sam’s comment above.
These aren’t mutually exclusive. I upvote many of his comments. Perhaps one in thirty simply deserve upvoting, one in fifteen because I have lower standards for him.
Probably.
Voting with lower standards makes sense if you think he is salvageable and want him to stick around—but that is not usually how we deal with extremely irrational posters.
He’s also provided me with enough evidence that he is not in the business of seeking truth that I have little reason to think even is reasonable-sounding points correlate with the truth. Even outside sources can be cherry-picked. If it were the case that everything here got fact checked or that we could effectively discount the evidence he provides proportionate to our estimation of his reliability this wouldn’t be a problem. But as time is a limited resource and we are not perfect Bayesian reasoners it is bad epistemic hygiene to encourage him to stick around. It is worse epistemic hygiene to lower our voting standards for him.
Not to mention the fact that people can’t seem to keep themselves from feeding the troll so we end up spending our time talking about whether or not conservatives have ever reinvented language to benefit themselves—as if that wasn’t already obvious to everyone who hasn’t been turned into a memetic zombie.
Sources are OK evidence, people bringing sources are better evidence. When those advocating banning chimp testing focus on cases decades old, that tells me no similar case has happened recently. I don’t assume that that case is typical of all chimp experiments, past and present, instead I learn the contrary.
If I find some study indicating that colleges discriminate against high school ROTC members, I don’t really have much of an idea if what I stumbled upon is the strongest evidence for that. If sam tells me about it, I am confident no reliable study showing more discrimination has been conducted.
This requires a model of the poster that not everyone reading comments will have. That can be solved by downvoting such posters to indicate their untrustworthiness.
But as I said humans are not perfect Bayesian reasoners and are not good at adjusting for unreliable speakers. We almost always either adjust too far and reverse stupidity or don’t discount enough and let cherry picked sources or skewed interpretations sneak into our brains. We’ll update without even noticing.
This seems like a selective application of a universal objection. “We almost always either adjust too far and reverse stupidity or don’t discount enough,” makes your reason technically not a universal objection, just an objection to learning anything from badly biased people, but this might be a confabulation added to the universal “humans are not perfect Bayesian reasoners”.
There is a difference between suboptimal updating and updating in ways that don’t correlate with the truth. My point is that badly biased posters may cause us to do the latter. But this is really tangential to the main thrust of my argument. Even (if) you can learn things (from) the occasional source Sam cites that seems very unlikely to make up for the rest of his noise. Well-Kept Gardens Die by Pacifism.
To be read: Even if you can learn about things from the occasional source Sam cites?
WKGDbP would be squarely on point if I had implied there was anything bad about condemning, downvoting unto hiddenness, censoring, banning, or the like, that Sam had net negative value, and that the evils of censorship were what was preventing me from harsher criticism of his comments.
As it is only the first few paragraphs of that are applicable. I concede I may be succumbing to the bias of valuing known, tangible gains over unknown, intangible but probably greater losses. I think Sam has net positive value here, but your argument he is deterring more valuable people from joining is important.
I think the most important landmark in the failure scenario described is “then another fool joins, and the two fools begin talking to each other...”
That’s where I draw the line, personally.
Correct. And edited.
I’m not sure you’re thinking about your information diet economically. Any minute you spend reading sam0345 or an indignant but obvious reply to him is a minute you could have spent reading something better. What make Less Wrong a special place is the ratio of good comments to bad not the total amount of insight gained by reading every single comment.
Yes, I’ve upvoted a couple of his comments too. A couple others got downvotes from me instead. It basically depends on whether he can focus himself on the argument, instead of the insults.
Generally I do agree with this assessment, though to be fair the average LW commenter dosen’t provide much evidence for their claims (unfortunately).
I agree both on the memetical relation between Christianity and progressivism, and on the likely receptiveness of LW to this idea. My guess is that most of sam’s downvotes are not for the intellectual content of his/her postings but for their style, that seems intent at scoring political points as opposed to finding truth.
I’ve down voted sam0345 before for similar reasons. This post didn’t strike me as that bad. My intuition puts bad style and good ideas to be somewhere on the −3 to +1 scale karma wise.
I suppose LW is sensitive to repeated misbehaviour. Either that or we let ourselves be affected quite strongly on how any particular comment is judged by who wrote it.
I downvoted it because because very little of it was actually relevant.