Well then, who is is the protestant King or Queen of England who better deserves the title?
Charles I of England conducted war against his own nation—he was so bad a king that he got himself beheaded. But he’s now a saint of the Anglican church.
Charles I was, like Louis, and Tsar Nicolas, a good King. Reform is dangerous, not repression. Tsar Nicholas suffered revolution and execution because under him the state swerved left, and Charles I suffered revolution and execution because under him the state swerved Whig. Charles I’s position was libertarian: That a good King is a King whose subject’s lives and property are their own.
The destruction of the Cathars had Arnaud Amalric brag to the Pope “Today your Holiness, twenty thousand heretics were put to the sword, regardless of rank, age, or sex.”.
It is probably not true that he reported that to the Pope. It is true that he wiped out a town of thousands of people, possibly twenty thousand people. It is probably true that he said of the people in the town “kill them all, God will know his own”, or words to that effect if not those exact words.
This however, occurred in a holy war, against armed resisting people, not a peacetime persecution, therefore needs to be compared with modern political civil wars and revolutions, not modern political repressions. Similarly for the Saint. Bartholomew’s Day massacre.
For religious repressions, the best you have got is the Spanish Inquisition and Bloody Mary, which is by modern standards, nothing. When a modern leftist regime kills on that scale, you think them liberal democrats.
Let us compare repression of heretics under Queen Elizabeth, with repression of conservatives today: Every play by Shakespeare expressed a worldview that was Roman Catholic, pagan, or atheist/materialist. No Hollywood movies express a worldview that is politically incorrect
Charles I was, like Louis, and Tsar Nicolas, a good King
Ah, Tsar Nicolas, the guy who involved his country in the nonsensical World War I, and thus caused 3.3 millions of his people to die needless deaths. The seeming pattern I observe is that you like certain rulers just because you happen to hate the people that deposed them.
Charles I’s position was libertarian:
“To raise revenue without reconvening Parliament, Charles first resurrected an all-but-forgotten law called the Distraint of Knighthood, promulgated in 1279, which required anyone who earned £40 or more each year to present himself at the King’s coronation to join the royal army as a knight. Later, Charles reintroduced obsolete feudal taxes such as purveyance, wardship, and forest laws”
I don’t think that’s the libertarian position. Excessive taxation seems to be one of the chief complaints against him.
When a modern leftist regime kills on that scale, you think them liberal democrats.
Modern “leftist” regimes that I consider liberal democratic ones have abolished the death penalty, and they don’t kill, period—my examples of liberal democracies would be countries like Sweden, Denmark, Switzerland, Netherlands; not Cuba or Venezuela.
Let us compare repression of heretics under Queen Elizabeth, with repression of conservatives today:
First of all, your selectively chosen comparisons become tiresome.
Second, you’d have to identify what you mean by “conservatives”. Does Bush Jr count as a conservative? If yes, then conservatives nowadays can become Presidents of America, and Catholics back then couldn’t become prime ministers.
Every play by Shakespeare expressed a worldview that was Roman Catholic, pagan, or atheist/materialist. No Hollywood movies express a worldview that is politically incorrect
Do you mean things like “Aaron is an atheist, and he’s the most evil person that ever walked on earth” (Titus Andronicus), or “Joan of Arc is a catholic, and she’s an evil witch justly executed” (Henry VI, Part 1)
Shakespeare was notoriously politically restricted in what he could display. My favourite example is Macbeth where he had to portray Macbeth as a cowardly murderer, and the previous king as a good one, just because the current lineage of kings was believed to descend from the slain king. That’s extreme historical revisionism: In actual reality Macbeth had led an open revolt against king Duncan—Duncan died in battle. Macbeth was considered a good and generous king—“Marianus Scotus tells how the king made a pilgrimage to Rome in 1050, where, Marianus says, he gave money to the poor as if it were seed.”
“Unlike later writers, no near contemporary source remarks on Macbeth as a tyrant. The Duan Albanach, which survives in a form dating to the reign of Malcolm III, calls him “Mac Bethad the renowned”. The Prophecy of Berchán, a verse history which purports to be a prophecy, describes him as “the generous king of Fortriu”″
But according to Shakespeare, Macbeth must be a villainous murderous tyrant, and Jeanne D’arc must be a witch. Because that’s what the political reality of his time demanded.
Say what you will about Hollywood, but they’ve not portrayed Gandhi as a bloodthirsty serial killer yet, nor have they portrayed Stalin or Che Guevara as heroes either. Shakespeare did do the equivalent thereof.
I’d be careful with this line of reasoning—complaining about lack of political correctness could be a matter of attempting to push “political correctness” further or signaling continued relevance.
People have different standards for offense—sam0345 may be upset that there aren’t more conservative worldviews in Hollywood while leftists may be upset that there aren’t more progressive worldviews in Hollywood. To the Left there are lots of movies that express worldviews that are politically incorrect to them. To sam0345 maybe all the movies in Hollywood are too politically correct. What fact is actually under debate here?
Charles I was, like Louis, and Tsar Nicolas, a good King. Reform is dangerous, not repression. Tsar Nicholas suffered revolution and execution because under him the state swerved left, and Charles I suffered revolution and execution because under him the state swerved Whig. Charles I’s position was libertarian: That a good King is a King whose subject’s lives and property are their own.
It is probably not true that he reported that to the Pope. It is true that he wiped out a town of thousands of people, possibly twenty thousand people. It is probably true that he said of the people in the town “kill them all, God will know his own”, or words to that effect if not those exact words.
This however, occurred in a holy war, against armed resisting people, not a peacetime persecution, therefore needs to be compared with modern political civil wars and revolutions, not modern political repressions. Similarly for the Saint. Bartholomew’s Day massacre.
For religious repressions, the best you have got is the Spanish Inquisition and Bloody Mary, which is by modern standards, nothing. When a modern leftist regime kills on that scale, you think them liberal democrats.
Let us compare repression of heretics under Queen Elizabeth, with repression of conservatives today: Every play by Shakespeare expressed a worldview that was Roman Catholic, pagan, or atheist/materialist. No Hollywood movies express a worldview that is politically incorrect
Ah, Tsar Nicolas, the guy who involved his country in the nonsensical World War I, and thus caused 3.3 millions of his people to die needless deaths. The seeming pattern I observe is that you like certain rulers just because you happen to hate the people that deposed them.
“To raise revenue without reconvening Parliament, Charles first resurrected an all-but-forgotten law called the Distraint of Knighthood, promulgated in 1279, which required anyone who earned £40 or more each year to present himself at the King’s coronation to join the royal army as a knight. Later, Charles reintroduced obsolete feudal taxes such as purveyance, wardship, and forest laws”
I don’t think that’s the libertarian position. Excessive taxation seems to be one of the chief complaints against him.
Modern “leftist” regimes that I consider liberal democratic ones have abolished the death penalty, and they don’t kill, period—my examples of liberal democracies would be countries like Sweden, Denmark, Switzerland, Netherlands; not Cuba or Venezuela.
First of all, your selectively chosen comparisons become tiresome.
Second, you’d have to identify what you mean by “conservatives”. Does Bush Jr count as a conservative? If yes, then conservatives nowadays can become Presidents of America, and Catholics back then couldn’t become prime ministers.
Do you mean things like “Aaron is an atheist, and he’s the most evil person that ever walked on earth” (Titus Andronicus), or “Joan of Arc is a catholic, and she’s an evil witch justly executed” (Henry VI, Part 1)
Shakespeare was notoriously politically restricted in what he could display. My favourite example is Macbeth where he had to portray Macbeth as a cowardly murderer, and the previous king as a good one, just because the current lineage of kings was believed to descend from the slain king. That’s extreme historical revisionism: In actual reality Macbeth had led an open revolt against king Duncan—Duncan died in battle. Macbeth was considered a good and generous king—“Marianus Scotus tells how the king made a pilgrimage to Rome in 1050, where, Marianus says, he gave money to the poor as if it were seed.”
“Unlike later writers, no near contemporary source remarks on Macbeth as a tyrant. The Duan Albanach, which survives in a form dating to the reign of Malcolm III, calls him “Mac Bethad the renowned”. The Prophecy of Berchán, a verse history which purports to be a prophecy, describes him as “the generous king of Fortriu”″
But according to Shakespeare, Macbeth must be a villainous murderous tyrant, and Jeanne D’arc must be a witch. Because that’s what the political reality of his time demanded.
Say what you will about Hollywood, but they’ve not portrayed Gandhi as a bloodthirsty serial killer yet, nor have they portrayed Stalin or Che Guevara as heroes either. Shakespeare did do the equivalent thereof.
I haven’t seen it, but judging from the trailer and Wikipedia entry, The Motorcycle Diaries portrays Guevara positively.
It isn’t a Hollywood movie (the production companies are British and Argentine), but it was distributed by a division of Universal Studios.
It’s about Guevara as a young man, before he became a revolutionary.
That’s a pretty bold claim.
Especially since the political correctness people routinely complain about Hollywood movies.
I’d be careful with this line of reasoning—complaining about lack of political correctness could be a matter of attempting to push “political correctness” further or signaling continued relevance.
People have different standards for offense—sam0345 may be upset that there aren’t more conservative worldviews in Hollywood while leftists may be upset that there aren’t more progressive worldviews in Hollywood. To the Left there are lots of movies that express worldviews that are politically incorrect to them. To sam0345 maybe all the movies in Hollywood are too politically correct. What fact is actually under debate here?