Eliezer:
Parables are more like stories, so they fit into the mind more easily. Please don’t let the critics get you down. This is great stuff. The difference between explanation, citation, and verbal mumbo-jumbo should be taught in elementary science classes as soon as kids can comprehend it.
michael vassar:
An even better film example of passwords, curiosity-stopping, and nonexplanation appears in the film “Idiocracy”.
There everyone drinks gatorade because they have been inculcated with the marketing slogan that “It’s got electrolytes—what your body craves!” They proceed to irrigate the crops with gatorade, causing a famine. A critic tries to point out that crops need water. Then the mob responds that gatorade is better since it has elecrolytes. But what are electrolytes, he asks? “They’re what plants crave!” they answer. But why do plants crave them? he asks. “Because they’re electrolytes!” the mob responds, slowly seeing that the critic is moron who can’t understand basic logic.
I was reminded of this when my friend commented that creatine is the greatest bodybuilding supplement because it gives your muscles extra “bursting power”. It didn’t seem to trouble him that the idea of “bursting power” did not exist in his mind before he had heard about creatine, or that it had no meaning in his mind apart from it being the thing creatine gives your muscles.
I think the gibberish supporting exercise supplements is a goldmine for peeople seeking real-world examples of password nonexplanations.
What is interesting is that the rhetoric for exercise supplements apes the verbal style of science to usurp its legitimacy. These supplements are marketed at fairly literal-minded sporty guys. And if you walk down to the next shelf in your health-food store, you will find other supplements marketed with a rhetoric based on the magic power of nature, crystals, love, mother earth, etc.. These are targeted at hippy-dippy types, and ape the verbal style of magic for its legitimacy with them.
I think the fundamental difference in the rhetorics is what logicnazi said: science is based on materialism, and magic is based on a romantic faith in the significance of human feeling. Magic appeals to people more. It is only the institutionalization of science that gives it enough prestige that many people will credit pseudo-scientific nonexplanations they don’t really understand over blatantly magical thinking that makes no sense.
Also, you can sell magic to a modern audience by dressing it up in “science.” From an ‘autopathy’ (homeopathy using patient’s own bodily secretions) site that I recently found:
“Today, isopathy is used to treat, among other things, people whose health has suffered as a result of a certain type of vaccination. They are given the same vaccine, but this time homeopathically diluted. The potentised poison of a viper can be used isopathically to treat a viper’s bite. Nevertheless, this understanding of isopathy has some drawbacks – it ignores certain central aspects of homeopathy, primarily its holistic concept. And it goes against what Hahnemann said about Homeopathy: that it is treatment on the principle of “like cures like”. Isopathy thus ceases to be homeopathy. Opinions on this matter, however, varied. In The Medical Advance, volume XXXII, no. 2, 1894, p. 59, the well-known homeopathic doctor J.H. Allen from Indiana wrote: “I will give proof that I think will be fully convincing to most minds that so called Isopathy is but the highest phase of similia in the highest sense.” ”
IMO, this is a brilliant example of “cargo cult science.” It looks and sounds like science, but it has no content whatsoever. The system it refers to is in fact a form of sympathetic magic. The author slips by including one falsifiable statement, but it is not one that anyone is ever likely to test experimentally.
I found this comment particularly useful, since Yudkowsky’s description seemed a little broad for my taste. If he is only referring to cases like those you describe, than I agree. (Not just because they look unscientific, but because they are unscientific.) If he did intend his statements more generally, I might take fault. To illustrate my point, here are some examples along a spectrum:
If I come across some claim I have reason to be suspicious of, I shouldn’t pay the claim any more heed if it starts with “scientists say” than if it starts with “Simon says”. After all, “scientists say” that we only use 10% of our brain, but that meme and hundreds just like it has been proven false many times.
If I don’t have any reason to suspect the information, however, my actions will depend on the circumstances. If I question the source, and the answer I get is “it was this scientific study”, I will take that to mean that the person read it in a headline or a short article on a real study. That will have the same effect as a curiosity stopper on me, since I won’t exactly get any more information out of that person. If I’m curious enough about it, I will of course google it later. If not, I’ll effectively mentally mark it with a [citation needed] tag. (For some reason, I tend to be better at remembering where I heard something than remembering the things themselves, so I don’t think I have too many untagged false facts rattling around between my ears.)
If I’m reading a reputable publication, and I see them cite one or more source on a surprising fact, that generally will act as a curiosity stopsign for me. I would have to be especially suspicious or especially curious to ask “wait, but why” and track down an answer. If I’m trying to learn a new discipline, I will generally scribble out a note in the margins of the book, so that I can google it later if the author doesn’t provide a sufficient explanation by the end of the book. (In fact, I’ve been making exactly the same sorts of notes in the LW comments as I work my way through The Sequences. :D)
Unfortunately, I have only limited time, and I can’t check every vague or incomplete explanation I hear or read. Therefore, unfortunately, we do have to let some things act as curiosity stoppers on some matters. This can lead to things like confirmation bias if we aren’t careful, so it’s important to track down a full explanation of things which might fundamentally challenge our understanding.
You are correct. That was actually my point, even if I apparently worded it poorly. People keep repeating the myth, even though it has been proven false many times. I was trying to use it as an example of popular misconceptions.
Eliezer: Parables are more like stories, so they fit into the mind more easily. Please don’t let the critics get you down. This is great stuff. The difference between explanation, citation, and verbal mumbo-jumbo should be taught in elementary science classes as soon as kids can comprehend it.
michael vassar: An even better film example of passwords, curiosity-stopping, and nonexplanation appears in the film “Idiocracy”.
There everyone drinks gatorade because they have been inculcated with the marketing slogan that “It’s got electrolytes—what your body craves!” They proceed to irrigate the crops with gatorade, causing a famine. A critic tries to point out that crops need water. Then the mob responds that gatorade is better since it has elecrolytes. But what are electrolytes, he asks? “They’re what plants crave!” they answer. But why do plants crave them? he asks. “Because they’re electrolytes!” the mob responds, slowly seeing that the critic is moron who can’t understand basic logic.
I was reminded of this when my friend commented that creatine is the greatest bodybuilding supplement because it gives your muscles extra “bursting power”. It didn’t seem to trouble him that the idea of “bursting power” did not exist in his mind before he had heard about creatine, or that it had no meaning in his mind apart from it being the thing creatine gives your muscles.
I think the gibberish supporting exercise supplements is a goldmine for peeople seeking real-world examples of password nonexplanations.
What is interesting is that the rhetoric for exercise supplements apes the verbal style of science to usurp its legitimacy. These supplements are marketed at fairly literal-minded sporty guys. And if you walk down to the next shelf in your health-food store, you will find other supplements marketed with a rhetoric based on the magic power of nature, crystals, love, mother earth, etc.. These are targeted at hippy-dippy types, and ape the verbal style of magic for its legitimacy with them.
I think the fundamental difference in the rhetorics is what logicnazi said: science is based on materialism, and magic is based on a romantic faith in the significance of human feeling. Magic appeals to people more. It is only the institutionalization of science that gives it enough prestige that many people will credit pseudo-scientific nonexplanations they don’t really understand over blatantly magical thinking that makes no sense.
Also, you can sell magic to a modern audience by dressing it up in “science.” From an ‘autopathy’ (homeopathy using patient’s own bodily secretions) site that I recently found: “Today, isopathy is used to treat, among other things, people whose health has suffered as a result of a certain type of vaccination. They are given the same vaccine, but this time homeopathically diluted. The potentised poison of a viper can be used isopathically to treat a viper’s bite. Nevertheless, this understanding of isopathy has some drawbacks – it ignores certain central aspects of homeopathy, primarily its holistic concept. And it goes against what Hahnemann said about Homeopathy: that it is treatment on the principle of “like cures like”. Isopathy thus ceases to be homeopathy. Opinions on this matter, however, varied. In The Medical Advance, volume XXXII, no. 2, 1894, p. 59, the well-known homeopathic doctor J.H. Allen from Indiana wrote: “I will give proof that I think will be fully convincing to most minds that so called Isopathy is but the highest phase of similia in the highest sense.” ”
IMO, this is a brilliant example of “cargo cult science.” It looks and sounds like science, but it has no content whatsoever. The system it refers to is in fact a form of sympathetic magic. The author slips by including one falsifiable statement, but it is not one that anyone is ever likely to test experimentally.
I found this comment particularly useful, since Yudkowsky’s description seemed a little broad for my taste. If he is only referring to cases like those you describe, than I agree. (Not just because they look unscientific, but because they are unscientific.) If he did intend his statements more generally, I might take fault. To illustrate my point, here are some examples along a spectrum:
If I come across some claim I have reason to be suspicious of, I shouldn’t pay the claim any more heed if it starts with “scientists say” than if it starts with “Simon says”. After all, “scientists say” that we only use 10% of our brain, but that meme and hundreds just like it has been proven false many times.
If I don’t have any reason to suspect the information, however, my actions will depend on the circumstances. If I question the source, and the answer I get is “it was this scientific study”, I will take that to mean that the person read it in a headline or a short article on a real study. That will have the same effect as a curiosity stopper on me, since I won’t exactly get any more information out of that person. If I’m curious enough about it, I will of course google it later. If not, I’ll effectively mentally mark it with a [citation needed] tag. (For some reason, I tend to be better at remembering where I heard something than remembering the things themselves, so I don’t think I have too many untagged false facts rattling around between my ears.)
If I’m reading a reputable publication, and I see them cite one or more source on a surprising fact, that generally will act as a curiosity stopsign for me. I would have to be especially suspicious or especially curious to ask “wait, but why” and track down an answer. If I’m trying to learn a new discipline, I will generally scribble out a note in the margins of the book, so that I can google it later if the author doesn’t provide a sufficient explanation by the end of the book. (In fact, I’ve been making exactly the same sorts of notes in the LW comments as I work my way through The Sequences. :D)
Unfortunately, I have only limited time, and I can’t check every vague or incomplete explanation I hear or read. Therefore, unfortunately, we do have to let some things act as curiosity stoppers on some matters. This can lead to things like confirmation bias if we aren’t careful, so it’s important to track down a full explanation of things which might fundamentally challenge our understanding.
Which scientists, when? My impression is that for a long time the people saying that have consistently not been scientists.
You are correct. That was actually my point, even if I apparently worded it poorly. People keep repeating the myth, even though it has been proven false many times. I was trying to use it as an example of popular misconceptions.
OK. (Perhaps After all, “scientists say” that … might have been clearer to me than “After all, scientists “say” that …* but I’m not sure.)
Edited. Thanks for the suggestion.