I get that status here comes in part from good arguments.
I really don’t like that sort of status explanation. I’m under no illusion that this is giving me any sort of status. If it does, then I have no idea what that status looks like.
Seems like a good idea to notice when that happens.
It’s never bad to notice what you’re doing, so I have nothing to say about that.
I’m not saying that one shouldn’t ever let those want-grabbers do their thing. But maybe you can’t tell I wasn’t saying that;
Nobody said “never”, but the post seems clearly cautionary to me. You use words like “useless”, “addiction”, “hijack” which have very negative connotations (as does “lotus” itself). Also, you linked to “Your Brain On Porn”, which does promote abstinence, as I understand.
More generally, I automatically placed your post into the same mental bucket as various “evil facebook is manipulating you” articles, which should explain why I interpret any ambiguities negatively. It might be unfair, but I can’t say that it doesn’t fit.
Was I not supposed to read your post that way?
So… if I take you literally, I think you just said that the only problem is when you develop a desire that causes you a problem.
Yeah, I’m not saying anything smart here, though it’s not quite that circular. I mean, compulsion is something you can get diagnosed with, I think. Also, I think, “compulsion” is the correct term for “addictions” that don’t actually involve drugs (e.g. gambling, facebook).
My point in bringing up “compulsions” was that there is already a word for “desires that cause problems”, and I don’t really understand why we want a new word, or in what way “lotus” is different. If it is different, I wonder if it is a natural category. That’s why I asked whether food is a lotus at the very beginning—I don’t really understand what the category looks like. I would have appreciated more analysis on that.
My current guess is that non-lotus pleasures are those that have some sort of negative feedback loops in them—e.g. eating isn’t a lotus, because once you’re full, it doesn’t feel as good. On the other hand, work can be a lotus, if you reach a state where you don’t want to stop, and there is nothing negative about such “lotus”. So it’s not exactly “compulsion” but a little more general, though all compulsions are also “lotuses”. Is that right?
My current guess is that non-lotus pleasures are those that have some sort of negative feedback loops in them—e.g. eating isn’t a lotus, because once you’re full, it doesn’t feel as good. On the other hand, work can be a lotus, if you reach a state where you don’t want to stop, and there is nothing negative about such “lotus”. So it’s not exactly “compulsion” but a little more general, though all compulsions are also “lotuses”. Is that right?
The core component of the lotus—the reason why Duncan referred to that in the first place—is that the lotus removes you from the plot. What falls into that category depends on what you think the plot is. Someone focused primarily on their life satisfaction will have different views from someone interested in the march of scientific progress, or from someone who is focused primarily on existential risk, or so on.
So a thing is a “lotus” if you desire it, but would prefer not to desire it? Well, that’s a meaningful category, but it’s very different from the compulsiveness that Valentine seems to describe. Or does a thing need both properties, to be a “lotus”.
More importantly, what is this “plot” and where does it come from? It’s good to have preferences over preferences, but I worry that you’re identifying with them way too much.
I really don’t like that sort of status explanation. I’m under no illusion that this is giving me any sort of status. If it does, then I have no idea what that status looks like.
It’s never bad to notice what you’re doing, so I have nothing to say about that.
Nobody said “never”, but the post seems clearly cautionary to me. You use words like “useless”, “addiction”, “hijack” which have very negative connotations (as does “lotus” itself). Also, you linked to “Your Brain On Porn”, which does promote abstinence, as I understand.
More generally, I automatically placed your post into the same mental bucket as various “evil facebook is manipulating you” articles, which should explain why I interpret any ambiguities negatively. It might be unfair, but I can’t say that it doesn’t fit.
Was I not supposed to read your post that way?
Yeah, I’m not saying anything smart here, though it’s not quite that circular. I mean, compulsion is something you can get diagnosed with, I think. Also, I think, “compulsion” is the correct term for “addictions” that don’t actually involve drugs (e.g. gambling, facebook).
My point in bringing up “compulsions” was that there is already a word for “desires that cause problems”, and I don’t really understand why we want a new word, or in what way “lotus” is different. If it is different, I wonder if it is a natural category. That’s why I asked whether food is a lotus at the very beginning—I don’t really understand what the category looks like. I would have appreciated more analysis on that.
My current guess is that non-lotus pleasures are those that have some sort of negative feedback loops in them—e.g. eating isn’t a lotus, because once you’re full, it doesn’t feel as good. On the other hand, work can be a lotus, if you reach a state where you don’t want to stop, and there is nothing negative about such “lotus”. So it’s not exactly “compulsion” but a little more general, though all compulsions are also “lotuses”. Is that right?
The core component of the lotus—the reason why Duncan referred to that in the first place—is that the lotus removes you from the plot. What falls into that category depends on what you think the plot is. Someone focused primarily on their life satisfaction will have different views from someone interested in the march of scientific progress, or from someone who is focused primarily on existential risk, or so on.
So a thing is a “lotus” if you desire it, but would prefer not to desire it? Well, that’s a meaningful category, but it’s very different from the compulsiveness that Valentine seems to describe. Or does a thing need both properties, to be a “lotus”.
More importantly, what is this “plot” and where does it come from? It’s good to have preferences over preferences, but I worry that you’re identifying with them way too much.