Any theatre offering access to the public should be able to evacuate all patrons safely in the event of a real fire, thus someone falsely yelling “fire!” simply inconveniences people and should be banned by the owner
A theater than can protect its patrons against a real fire doesn’t necessarily equal a theater that can protect its patrons against a false fire.
Nor do I find it more reasonable to ban businesses that are incapable of protecting all patrons against the repercussions of all types of lying. I find it far more reasonable, and much of a “Schelling point” to ban spreading knowingly false information.
e.g. someone being slandered could sue rather than have the slanderer arrested
That’s effectively a matter of degree—you’re just saying that the punishment should be a fine instead of a prison sentence. It’s not really a difference in kind.
A theater than can protect its patrons against a real fire doesn’t necessarily equal a theater that can protect its patrons against a false fire.
That is a patently false statement.
I find it far more reasonable, and much of a “Schelling point” to ban spreading knowingly false information.
And thus the slippery slope becomes a teflon cliff.
That’s effectively a matter of degree—you’re just saying that the punishment should be a fine instead of a prison sentence. It’s not really a difference in kind.
One is criminal and the other is civil? One is a dispute between two (equal under the law) individuals in front of a (supposedly) impartial judge and the other is the state versus an individual? Quite a lot of difference really.
A theater than can protect its patrons against a real fire doesn’t necessarily equal a theater that can protect its patrons against a false fire.
That is a patently false statement.
How do you know this? In the case of a true fire, fire extinguishers may activate, fire exits might automatically open, or perhaps the theater’s army of flying robots would come and carry everyone to safety. Or perhaps the theater is designed from such materials that it can’t catch fire.
And thus the slippery slope becomes a teflon cliff.
Excuse me? The concept of “knowing lie” isn’t a good enough Schelling Point for you?
I’m in favour of banning the act of falsely shouting “Fire” in a theater, for the exact same reason that I’m in favour of banning the act of giving poison to other people while calling it “orange juice”
I don’t think you’d have any opposition to treating the latter an act of murder, why are you against treating the former likewise an act of murder?
One is criminal and the other is civil?
This is a legalism, a difference in labelling, nothing else.
One is a dispute between two (equal under the law) individuals in front of a (supposedly) impartial judge and the other is the state versus an individual?
Again mere legalism. In practical terms, it’s the same, at least from the point of view of the accused—you get accused for something, someone is accusing you, if you’re found guilty you get punished. Simple as that.
Excuse me? The concept of “knowing lie” isn’t a good enough Schelling Point for you?
I’m in favour of banning the act of falsely shouting “Fire” in a theater, for the exact same reason that I’m in favour of banning the act of giving poison to other people while calling it “orange juice”
I don’t think you’d have any opposition to treating the latter an act of murder, why are you against treating the former likewise an act of murder?
I believe there actually is a salient distinction between the two. Namely, whereas the harm in the poisoning is the act of placing the poison in the drink and giving it to another person, the act in shouting “Fire!” is in the believing that there is no fire and the harm resulting from the shout. While the distinction would not amount to much for an all-knowing god, in reality it would probably prove difficult to establish what the person shouting expected the result to be, and to determine whether he had believed there was a fire or not. Punishing alarmist statements is indeed a potential slippery slope—if someone shouts “Earthquake!” in the middle of a crowded street and pedestrians panic and someone ends up in the traffic, shall we prosecute this shouter too? Or what if someone proclaims that the nation is under imminent threat of nuclear attack and this results in massive economic disruption as people try to hoard survival-type goods?
The problem here is that it is difficult for a court to assess whether the person actually believed what they said, and whether they anticipated (perhaps a priori rationally) that there would be no negative consequences of their proclamation.
It may also interest you to know that the original “shouting fire in a crowded theater” claim was part of a judicial ruling written by Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr. in which the Supreme court unanimously ruled that it was a violation of the Espionage Act of 1917, to distribute flyers opposing the draft during World War I, which I think is a suitable example of its slippery slope potential. My general impression is that while there have been real instances of deaths caused by such shouts, most of these occurred before recent times, although I am not too confident in this.
The problem here is that it is difficult for a court to assess whether the person actually believed what they said, and whether they anticipated (perhaps a priori rationally) that there would be no negative consequences of their proclamation.
Courts do this all the time. Further, there’s a well developed set of doctrines about when a person is held responsible for consequences that the person did not actually anticipate.
More generally, the quote about falsely shouting fire is not intended to support a particular test for the limits of freedom of speech. Rather, the quote makes the point that speech is not unlimited.I can agree that Schneck’s conviction should have been overturned without believing that no pure speech can have legal consequences.
As an aside, the current test in the United States is imminent lawless action, a much more pro-speech standard. Nonetheless, a knowing false statement likely to lead to multiple injuries is almost certainly punishable by the criminal law.
Thanks, that helps update my knowledge of the current standards. I certainly agree that what you say is reasonable, however I do not think that a potential for a slippery slope effect can be eliminated through carefully formulated test or doctrines (merely substantially reduced). For example, it is conceivable that in emergencies the fact that we now accept some restrictions on free speech will make it much easier to accept further restrictions and thus make unreasonable restriction more likely.
Whether that is a reasonable compromise depends on the actual danger of “pure speech” causing negative consequences, on alternative ways of mitigating them, and on the actual degree of the slipperiness of the slope. Personally, based on my current knowledge, I would prefer to pursue various alternatives before resorting to criminal legal action, however that’s dependent on actual facts and has little to do with the main topic being discussed.
One is criminal and the other is civil? One is a dispute between two (equal under the law) individuals in front of a (supposedly) impartial judge and the other is the state versus an individual? Quite a lot of difference really.
This distinction breaks down very quickly. Consider Hustler v. Falwell, which limited the scope of civil remedies because enforcement of those remedies violated freedom of speech.
Or, more recently, Phelps v. Snyder, where the Court overturned a jury verdict for intentional infliction of emotional distress based on Fred Phelps’s First Amendment protected funeral protest.
No. If you really believe the public/private distinction is solid, then the First Amendment has nothing to do with private (i.e. civil) disputes. So Hustler should have come out the other way.
In general, American law has really struggled with the public/private distinction. I would say this is because the distinction is not rigorously meaningful—although I doubt most judges would frame it quite that way.
Regardless of the framing, American law recognizes that the situation of “two equal individuals before an impartial judge” includes the fact that the judge is an arm of government, exercising government power. What that means in practice is less clear.
Compare Shelley v. Kraemer (“That the action of state courts and judicial officers in their official capacities is to be regarded as action of the State within the meaning of the Fourteenth Amendment is a proposition which has long been established by decisions of this Court.”) with Schiavo v. Schiavo (holding that a state judge ordering the removal of a feeding tube is not state action).
A theater than can protect its patrons against a real fire doesn’t necessarily equal a theater that can protect its patrons against a false fire.
Nor do I find it more reasonable to ban businesses that are incapable of protecting all patrons against the repercussions of all types of lying. I find it far more reasonable, and much of a “Schelling point” to ban spreading knowingly false information.
That’s effectively a matter of degree—you’re just saying that the punishment should be a fine instead of a prison sentence. It’s not really a difference in kind.
That is a patently false statement.
And thus the slippery slope becomes a teflon cliff.
One is criminal and the other is civil? One is a dispute between two (equal under the law) individuals in front of a (supposedly) impartial judge and the other is the state versus an individual? Quite a lot of difference really.
How do you know this? In the case of a true fire, fire extinguishers may activate, fire exits might automatically open, or perhaps the theater’s army of flying robots would come and carry everyone to safety. Or perhaps the theater is designed from such materials that it can’t catch fire.
Excuse me? The concept of “knowing lie” isn’t a good enough Schelling Point for you?
I’m in favour of banning the act of falsely shouting “Fire” in a theater, for the exact same reason that I’m in favour of banning the act of giving poison to other people while calling it “orange juice”
I don’t think you’d have any opposition to treating the latter an act of murder, why are you against treating the former likewise an act of murder?
This is a legalism, a difference in labelling, nothing else.
Again mere legalism. In practical terms, it’s the same, at least from the point of view of the accused—you get accused for something, someone is accusing you, if you’re found guilty you get punished. Simple as that.
I believe there actually is a salient distinction between the two. Namely, whereas the harm in the poisoning is the act of placing the poison in the drink and giving it to another person, the act in shouting “Fire!” is in the believing that there is no fire and the harm resulting from the shout. While the distinction would not amount to much for an all-knowing god, in reality it would probably prove difficult to establish what the person shouting expected the result to be, and to determine whether he had believed there was a fire or not. Punishing alarmist statements is indeed a potential slippery slope—if someone shouts “Earthquake!” in the middle of a crowded street and pedestrians panic and someone ends up in the traffic, shall we prosecute this shouter too? Or what if someone proclaims that the nation is under imminent threat of nuclear attack and this results in massive economic disruption as people try to hoard survival-type goods?
The problem here is that it is difficult for a court to assess whether the person actually believed what they said, and whether they anticipated (perhaps a priori rationally) that there would be no negative consequences of their proclamation.
It may also interest you to know that the original “shouting fire in a crowded theater” claim was part of a judicial ruling written by Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr. in which the Supreme court unanimously ruled that it was a violation of the Espionage Act of 1917, to distribute flyers opposing the draft during World War I, which I think is a suitable example of its slippery slope potential. My general impression is that while there have been real instances of deaths caused by such shouts, most of these occurred before recent times, although I am not too confident in this.
Courts do this all the time. Further, there’s a well developed set of doctrines about when a person is held responsible for consequences that the person did not actually anticipate.
More generally, the quote about falsely shouting fire is not intended to support a particular test for the limits of freedom of speech. Rather, the quote makes the point that speech is not unlimited.I can agree that Schneck’s conviction should have been overturned without believing that no pure speech can have legal consequences.
As an aside, the current test in the United States is imminent lawless action, a much more pro-speech standard. Nonetheless, a knowing false statement likely to lead to multiple injuries is almost certainly punishable by the criminal law.
Thanks, that helps update my knowledge of the current standards. I certainly agree that what you say is reasonable, however I do not think that a potential for a slippery slope effect can be eliminated through carefully formulated test or doctrines (merely substantially reduced). For example, it is conceivable that in emergencies the fact that we now accept some restrictions on free speech will make it much easier to accept further restrictions and thus make unreasonable restriction more likely.
Whether that is a reasonable compromise depends on the actual danger of “pure speech” causing negative consequences, on alternative ways of mitigating them, and on the actual degree of the slipperiness of the slope. Personally, based on my current knowledge, I would prefer to pursue various alternatives before resorting to criminal legal action, however that’s dependent on actual facts and has little to do with the main topic being discussed.
This distinction breaks down very quickly. Consider Hustler v. Falwell, which limited the scope of civil remedies because enforcement of those remedies violated freedom of speech.
Or, more recently, Phelps v. Snyder, where the Court overturned a jury verdict for intentional infliction of emotional distress based on Fred Phelps’s First Amendment protected funeral protest.
Limiting the scope of a civil remedy is somewhat removed from the distinctions between civil and criminal, no?
No. If you really believe the public/private distinction is solid, then the First Amendment has nothing to do with private (i.e. civil) disputes. So Hustler should have come out the other way.
In general, American law has really struggled with the public/private distinction. I would say this is because the distinction is not rigorously meaningful—although I doubt most judges would frame it quite that way.
Regardless of the framing, American law recognizes that the situation of “two equal individuals before an impartial judge” includes the fact that the judge is an arm of government, exercising government power. What that means in practice is less clear.
Compare Shelley v. Kraemer (“That the action of state courts and judicial officers in their official capacities is to be regarded as action of the State within the meaning of the Fourteenth Amendment is a proposition which has long been established by decisions of this Court.”) with Schiavo v. Schiavo (holding that a state judge ordering the removal of a feeding tube is not state action).