Yeah no problem! Glad you are taking the time to consider and I look forward to your thoughts.
I’d like to throw in a bit of grist for your thinking around humans and symbiosis. I would argue for most of human history we were consciously symbiotic, meaning we saw ourselves as an extension and in relationship with the environment. Whether that was seeing ourselves as equal with (brother wolf, etc) or above (stewards of the earth) the emphasis was on working with our surroundings to cultivate advantage. What is domestication other than symbiosis?
I won’t say that our disconnection from this is exclusively modern, it has existed in other time periods, but it is fair to say that the idea that self-maximizing reproductive fitness is the dominant drive of life is a very recent idea. After all, when Darwin’s theory came out it was widely opposed by many for the simple fact that “survival of the fittest” implied that egotistical extremism was natural and surely that couldn’t be right. [And of course Darwin himself was never a social Darwinist, plainly saying he was only focused on the fittest meaning “better adapted for the immediate, local environment.”]
And if I were were an alien that simply observed from afar, I would come to the conclusion that humans are highly symbiotic. Modern humans are incapable of living without extreme reliance on a huge array of other entities, both biological and non, that they are constantly producing, improving, and supporting.
Ah, you might say, but that’s not symbiosis because we are exploiting those things. To which I would reply thusly: first, paratistism is a form of symbiosis so even in the cynical view that we’re just exploiting other creatures and each other, we’re still symbiotic and even more so now since so many creatures (not to mention our inanimate creations) are incapable of survival without us. But even beyond that, our relationships are still mutualistic in the sense that we are greatly increasing quantity of life in the organisms we are symbiotic with.
There is a broader point I’m making here, which goes back to whether the game is zero or positive sum. It’s tempting to say that AGI will have no need for us because it has a different utility function. But does our utility function rely on bees? So many cows, sheep, goats? Dogs and cats as companions? Sparrows, pigeons, so on and so forth...they provide something we are incapable of producing in ourselves and that is enough for us. What will the AGI find itself lacking in?
Not that I’m saying we will become domesticated animals in relation to AGI, I am merely drawing parallels that life is nuanced and conditional.
Yeah no problem! Glad you are taking the time to consider and I look forward to your thoughts.
I’d like to throw in a bit of grist for your thinking around humans and symbiosis. I would argue for most of human history we were consciously symbiotic, meaning we saw ourselves as an extension and in relationship with the environment. Whether that was seeing ourselves as equal with (brother wolf, etc) or above (stewards of the earth) the emphasis was on working with our surroundings to cultivate advantage. What is domestication other than symbiosis?
I won’t say that our disconnection from this is exclusively modern, it has existed in other time periods, but it is fair to say that the idea that self-maximizing reproductive fitness is the dominant drive of life is a very recent idea. After all, when Darwin’s theory came out it was widely opposed by many for the simple fact that “survival of the fittest” implied that egotistical extremism was natural and surely that couldn’t be right. [And of course Darwin himself was never a social Darwinist, plainly saying he was only focused on the fittest meaning “better adapted for the immediate, local environment.”]
And if I were were an alien that simply observed from afar, I would come to the conclusion that humans are highly symbiotic. Modern humans are incapable of living without extreme reliance on a huge array of other entities, both biological and non, that they are constantly producing, improving, and supporting.
Ah, you might say, but that’s not symbiosis because we are exploiting those things. To which I would reply thusly: first, paratistism is a form of symbiosis so even in the cynical view that we’re just exploiting other creatures and each other, we’re still symbiotic and even more so now since so many creatures (not to mention our inanimate creations) are incapable of survival without us. But even beyond that, our relationships are still mutualistic in the sense that we are greatly increasing quantity of life in the organisms we are symbiotic with.
Much too well actually, since domesticated mammals outweigh wild ones 10:1. You could say we do far too much symbiosis.
There is a broader point I’m making here, which goes back to whether the game is zero or positive sum. It’s tempting to say that AGI will have no need for us because it has a different utility function. But does our utility function rely on bees? So many cows, sheep, goats? Dogs and cats as companions? Sparrows, pigeons, so on and so forth...they provide something we are incapable of producing in ourselves and that is enough for us. What will the AGI find itself lacking in?
Not that I’m saying we will become domesticated animals in relation to AGI, I am merely drawing parallels that life is nuanced and conditional.