Using a noun is, by default, reification. Or, at the very least, should be presumed so in the absence of some statement along the lines of “of course when I’m asking you to agree that people have qualia, I am not asking you to commit yourself to there being any such things as qualia”.
Qualia without reification seem to me to amount to “people have experiences”. I understand that it doesn’t seem that way to you, but I don’t understand why; I don’t yet understand just what you mean by “qualia”, and the one thing you’ve said that seems to be an attempt to explain why you want something that goes beyond “people have experiences” in the direction you’re calling “qualia”—the business about perception being a complex multi-stage process involving filtering and processing and whatnot—didn’t help me, for the reasons I’ve already given.
Again, that would be an ontology of qualia. Again, I am offering a definition, not a complete theory.
I wish you would offer a definition. You are repeatedly declining to do so, and then complaining that I object to your definition (which you haven’t given) or have another definition of my own (which I don’t) or that I am immovably committed to some theory (you don’t say what) that conflicts (you don’t say how) with something (you don’t say what) about qualia. Maybe you’re right—for instance, I might be committed to some theory without even recognizing the fact, because it seems so obvious to me. But if so, the only way you’re going to correct my error (I assume, at least for the sake of argument, that if I am wrong you do want to help me get less wrong, rather than merely to gloat at how wrong I am) is by showing me what I’m doing wrong, which you seem very unwilling to do. You just want to keep saying that I’m wrong, which so far as I can see accomplishes nothing.
Definitions are supposed to have implications. It’s not reasonable to object to them for having implications
That’s OK, because I’m not doing that, as I already tried to make clear. My problem is that I can’t tell what implications your definition has. Because you won’t tell me what it is.
in raising the issue, you are already using a good-enough definition of qualia
It seems to me that in order for a definition I’m using to be good enough, a minimum requirement should be for me to have a reasonable idea what it is. In the present case, this requirement is not met.
Further, what I require to raise the issue is precisely the thing you are now saying is not part of what you mean by “qualia”, namely the understanding that insisting on the term “qualia” rather than merely saying that people experience things amounts to reifying whatever-it-is-”qualia”-is-about. You seem to be saying simultaneously (1) that speaking of “qualia” doesn’t commit one to reifying anything, and (2) that if I say “I don’t like the term ‘qualia’ because it seems like it may be reifying things that might be better not reified” I thereby demonstrate that I understand what you mean by “qualia” well enough. How can those possibly both be true?
Question begging definitions are bad, m’kay.
I’m glad you agree with me about that. But you seem to be … offended? … that I might be concerned at the possibility that you might be trying to make a question-begging definition. Do you consider that the way you’ve been conducting your side of this discussion demonstrates your bona fides so clearly that no reasonable person in my position could be concerned that there might be such an issue?
if Bob differs from Alice, he differs in being a naïve realist.
Splendid! I believe, like Alice, that people have experience. I am not a naïve realist. Therefore, apparently, I believe in qualia in whatever sense you have in mind, even though I don’t yet understand what that sense is. Problem solved!
(At least, I think I am not a naïve realist. But—I’m sorry if this seems to be becoming a theme—I don’t really understand exactly what you mean by “naïve realist”, so maybe I’m wrong in thinking I’m not one. At any rate, I agree with what you said in apparent criticism of naïve realism, namely that when we perceive things it happens by means of a complicated process in which lots of things happen along the way.)
I wasn’t putting forward ways-of-perceiving as an exhaustive definition, I was pointing out the inadequacy of your definition.
Not possible, since I wasn’t proposing to define anything. I assume you mean the inadequacy of my proposal of “people experience things” as the uncontroversially-true-and-needing-explaining part of what you might possibly mean by “people have qualia”. But, for the reasons I already gave and which you seem to have simply ignored without comment, I do not understand how what you said about naïve realism and the complexity of perception does anything to explain how “people have qualia” is better than “people experience things”.
It occurs to me that maybe you’re taking “things” in “people experience things” to be e.g. sunsets, and “people experience things” to mean something like “a straightforward X-experiences-Y relation holds between people and sunsets”, which might explain why you are accusing me of naïve realism. That isn’t what I mean; the difficulty I am having here is that the language we have available for talking about this stuff is full of implicit reifications and the like. Perhaps just “people experience” would be better. What is uncontroversial is not that people directly-interact-perceptually-with sunsets, nor that people have actual-reified-experience-types-called qualia, but that experiencing-events (-processes? all these terms are still too commital if taken literally) of the kind we are describing when we say things like “I saw a lovely sunset” happen. All the details of just what objects are involved are, I think, up for grabs and one of the things that makes me uneasy about “people have qualia” is that it strongly suggests particular answers to some of those questions that—because “question-begging definitions are bad, m’kay”—would be better left un-suggested.
You are engaging in a selective demand for rigor.
Only in the following sense: you seem offended that I will not declare that people have qualia. (Again, that’s the full extent of what I’m doing, so if something else is what’s offending you then you might consider saying explicitly what it is.) So I want to know what you mean when you say that people have qualia, and how that differs from weaker propositions like “people experience things”.
So, sure, it’s selective: I am selectively seeking clarification of the things you’re talking about where I don’t understand what you mean. If you find that problematic, then I would like some help understanding why.
It is possible that something you say at the end of your comment above is intended to be an answer to my often-repeated question. (Of course you claim that you have “already said [it] several times”, and of course that is not true, but never mind.)
they [sc. qualia] are supposed to be subjectively experienced ways of perceiving
Well, for sure I agree that perceiving happens, and that how that feels to us is subjective (because how anything feels to us is subjective, because that’s what “subjective” means). Does that mean that I agree with what you mean when you say “we have qualia”, or not?
(That isn’t meant to be some sort of gotcha-question. I genuinely don’t know what the answer is. I am still trying to avoid needless reification, and I suspect that for reasons I am not currently able to anticipate you will find it unsatisfactory that I don’t use the exact phrase “have qualia”; it seems to me that what I said above precisely captures what you get by taking “we have qualia” + “qualia are subjectively experienced ways of perceiving” and trying to change that as little as possible while avoiding the (apparent?) reification I’m worried about; but maybe I’m wrong. And a part of my brain still harbours the uncharitable suspicion that despite your assurances above the reification is actually the point and you will not accept any wording that doesn’t carry the ontological commitment you say you aren’t trying to beg the question of. Again, this is an uncharitable suspicion and I am aware that it is; but I am having trouble figuring out better explanations for why you’re so concerned that I specifically embrace “qualia”, in so many words.)
Using a noun is, by default, reification. Or, at the very least, should be presumed so in the absence of some statement along the lines of “of course when I’m asking you to agree that people have qualia, I am not asking you to commit yourself to there being any such things as qualia”.
I’ve already said that I’m using “qualia” in an ontologically non committal way.
I note from your 2016 comment that you use the word noncommittally yourself.
“Qualia are what happens in our brains (or our immaterial souls, or wherever we have experiences) in response to external stimulation, or similar things that arise in other ways (e.g., in dreams).”
Qualia without reification seem to me to amount to “people have experiences”.
As I have explained, equating qualia and experiences doesn’t sufficiently emphasise the subjective aspects.
“Experience” can be used in contexts like “experience a sunset” where the thing experienced is entirely objective, or contexts like “experience existential despair” ,where it’s a subjective feeling. Only the second kind of use overlaps with “qualia”. Hence, “qualia” is often briefly defined as “subjective experience”.
Note that “experience” is just as much of a noun as “quale”, so it has just as much of reification issue.
None.
I am still trying to avoid needless reification,
Then dont reify. The reification issue exists only in your imagination.
I understand that it doesn’t seem that way to you, but I don’t understand why; I don’t yet understand just what you mean by “qualia”,
How do you know it’s different from what you mean? You were comfortable using the word in 2016.
This conversation started when I used a series of examples to define “qualia”, which you objected to as not being a real definition.
“It’s easy to give examples of things we think of as qualia. I’m not so sure that that means it’s easy to give a satisfactory definition of “qualia”.′
But when I asked you to define “matter”...you started off with a listof examples!
“First, purely handwavily and to give some informal idea of the boundaries, here are some things that I would call “matter” and some possibly-similar things that I would not. Matter: electrons, neutrons, bricks, stars, air, people, the London Philharmonic Orchestra (considered as a particular bunch of particular people). Not matter: photons, electric fields, empty space (to whatever extent such a thing exists), the London Philharmonic Orchestra (considered as a thing whose detailed composition changes over time), the god believed in by Christians (should he exist), minds. Doubtful: black holes; the gods believed in by the ancient Greeks (should they exist).”
The only thing I’m doing that is different is going for a minimal and common sense approach, rather than a technical definition on the lines of “that which is ineffable, incorrigible, irreducible and repeatable. Hence why the list of examples: it’s hard to deny that ones pains feel like something, even when one can quibble about incorrigibility or whatever.
and the one thing you’ve said that seems to be an attempt to explain why you want something that goes beyond “people have experiences” in the direction you’re calling “qualia”—the business about perception being a complex multi-stage process involving filtering and processing and whatnot—didn’t help me, for the reasons I’ve already given.
Again, that would be an ontology of qualia. Again, I am offering a definition, not a complete theory. Again, you shouldn’t be rejecting evidence because you don’t like it’s theoretical implications.
Splendid! I believe, like Alice, that people have experience. I am not a naïve realist.
Naive realism is not the denial of experience: it’s treating experience as objective.
At least, I think I am not a naïve realist. But—I’m sorry if this seems to be becoming a theme—I don’t really understand exactly what you mean by “naïve realist”
You can look up definitions, just as you can for “qualia”.
so maybe I’m wrong in thinking I’m not one. At any rate, I agree with what you said in apparent criticism of naïve realism, namely that when we perceive things it happens by means of a complicated process in which lots of things happen along the way.)
Which have an objective aspect -- things happen differently in the brains of different perceivers—and a subjective aspect—things seem different to different observers. Again, the subjective aspect is what’s relevant.
It occurs to me that maybe you’re taking “things” in “people experience things” to be e.g. sunsets, and “people experience things” to mean something like “a straightforward X-experiences-Y relation holds between people and sunsets”, which might explain why you are accusing me of naïve realism. That isn’t what I mean; the difficulty I am having here is that the language we have available for talking about this stuff is full of implicit reifications
No, it just seems to you that way.
they [sc. qualia] are supposed to be subjectively experienced ways of perceiving
Well, for sure I agree that perceiving happens, and that how that feels to us is subjective (because how anything feels to us is subjective, because that’s what “subjective” means).
No, it doesn’t mean anything so vacuous. If two people perform mental arithmetic , that is not subjective because maths is objective...they get the same answer, or one of them is wrong. “Subjective” doesn’t just mean that individual apprehensions vary, it means there is no right or wrong about the variation Some people like the way marmite tastes to them, others don’t. Neither is right or wrong, but the marmite is always the exact same substance.
Does that mean that I agree with what you mean when you say “we have qualia”, or not?
Well, you seem to be having trouble understanding what “subjective” means.
Yup, I used the term “qualia” in 2016 (in response to someone else making an argument that used the term). I don’t always pick every possible fight :-).
(In that case, turchin was making another specific argument and used the word “qualia” in passing. I disagreed with the other specific argument and argued against that. The specific word “qualia” was a side issue at most. Here, the specific point at issue is whether everyone needs to agree that “we have qualia”.)
You asked for a definition of “matter” and I (1) gave a list of examples and counterexamples and near-the-boundary examples, (2) prefaced with an explicit note that this was preliminary handwaving, (3) followed by an attempt at a precise definition distinguishing matter from not-matter. You haven’t done any of that for “qualia”, just given a list of examples, and that (not the fact that you did give a list of examples) is what I was complaining about. “It’s easy to give examples … I’m not so sure that that means it’s easy to give a satisfactory definition”.
Your accusations of wilful ignorance and/or laziness
Yes, I could look up definitions of “naïve realism” or of “qualia”. As it happens, I have. They don’t tell me what you mean by those terms, and definitions of them do not always agree with one another. Which is why I keep asking you what you mean by terms you are using, and get frustrated when you seem reluctant to tell me.
For instance, here we read that “the naïve realist claims that, when we successfully see a tomato, that tomato is literally a constituent of that experience, such that an experience of that fundamental kind could not have occurred in the absence of that object”. Here we read that “naïve realism is the human tendency to believe that we see the world around us objectively, and that people who disagree with us must be uninformed, irrational, or biased”. In a comment of yours elsewhere in this thread you say “People generally and incorrectly assume that colours are objective properties (hence the consternation caused, amongst some, by the dress illusion). That’s called naive realism, and it’s scientifically wrong.”
(I remark in passing that you also said that the difference between two people who agree that people experience things, one of whom says that we have qualia and one of whom doesn’t, is that the latter has to be a naïve realist; if you are in fact claiming that “we have qualia” means something that is straightforwardly implied by “colours are not objective properties of the objects whose colours they are” then, yay, it turns out that I believe that we have qualia and we can stop arguing. But I’m pretty sure this will not in fact be enough.)
These three things are not entirely unlike one another, but no two of them are the same. Your comment is offering an example rather than a definition, but it is not in fact an example of the first definition and I’m doubtful about its being an example of the second.
Or I could look up “qualia” in, say, the MIT Encyclopedia of Cognitive Science, whose entry for that subject begins as follows—my annotations in square brackets.
The terms quale and qualia (pl.) are most commonly used [“most commonly”, so plainly what is about to follow is acknowledged not to be a definition that covers everyone’s use of the terms—gjm] to characterize the qualitative, experiential, or felt properties of mental states. [“most commonly used to characterize” is quite a long way from defining anything—gjm] Some philosophers take qualia to be essential features of all conscious mental states; others only of sensations and perceptions. [Again, not everyone uses the word the same way. -- gjm]
Here we have clear acknowledgement that the term is used differently by different people, and (I think deliberately) something that falls short of an actual clear definition.
Or I could go to an ordinary dictionary, say the superlative Oxford English Dictionary, the relevant part of whose definition reads: “a quality or property as perceived or experienced by a person”. Which seems to presuppose (at least one version of) “naïve realism”: these qualities or properties are presumably of things in the external world and this definition seems at risk of importing the objects themselves into our qualia.
(But: people have experiences; often those experiences are “of” qualities or properties of objects in the world around them; if you don’t consider that to be acknowledging that “people have qualia”, what do you think is missing other than a specific shibboleth-phrasing?)
Actual discussion of the issues
I’m not sure whether “that which is ineffable, incorrigible, irreducible and repeatable” is a (presumably very partial) description of what you mean when you talk about qualia, rather than just a random list of adjectives. If it is, then it’s a nice illustration of why I am reluctant to say (as I think you want me to) “yes, sure, I agree that there are qualia”. I strongly suspect that what most people who talk about “qualia” mean when they use that word goes way beyond the specific handwavy examples they offer, and I don’t want to be thought (by them or by others) to be endorsing any of the other stuff until we’ve talked about that other stuff explicitly. I agree with you that people experience things; I do not think it’s clear that they have experiences, or equivalence-classes-of-experiences, or whatever, that are ineffable, incorrigible, irreducible and repeatable. Maybe they do. I’m not saying they definitely don’t. Just that those further claims are substantial claims, and that I think they are the sort of thing that “qualia” commonly means even to people who say “oh, no, all I mean by qualia is that stuff that happens when you look at a red thing”, and that part of the difference between “I agree that people experience things” and I agree that people have qualia” is that the latter is liable to give the impression that I endorse those substantial claims, and that if you want my assent to those claims then we actually need to discuss them.
Saying that you’re going for a minimal and common-sense approach is all very well, but in practice people are not that great at using words that have connotations in ways that abandon those connotations. This is also why I don’t think an atheist should play along if a certain kind of theist says “well, let’s just take ‘God’ as a sort of shorthand for humanity’s highest and best aspirations”, and I don’t think a creationist should play along if a biologist says “look, all ‘evolution’ means is change of allele frequencies in populations”.
You distinguish (I think this is the nearest you get to answering my question about what exactly you mean by qualia) between two kinds of things we might say about experience: “objective” (things happen differently in the brains of different people) and “subjective” (things seem different to different people) and say it’s the subjective side you’re concerned with. I am not actually convinced that “things seem different to different people” is a very meaningful proposition—that seems to presuppose some way of comparing experiences across people, and while obviously it’s easy to say that my experience of looking at a green thing is not the same as your experience of being struck gently on the head with a golf club I don’t really know what it would mean to say that my experience of looking at a green thing is or isn’t the same as your experience of looking at a green thing, and I strongly suspect that there is no answer.
Still, for sure people experience things and we can e.g. ask someone what they feel like. Does that mean that I agree that “people have qualia”? If not, what do you think is missing other than a specific shibboleth-phrasing?
Using a noun is, by default, reification. Or, at the very least, should be presumed so in the absence of some statement along the lines of “of course when I’m asking you to agree that people have qualia, I am not asking you to commit yourself to there being any such things as qualia”.
Qualia without reification seem to me to amount to “people have experiences”. I understand that it doesn’t seem that way to you, but I don’t understand why; I don’t yet understand just what you mean by “qualia”, and the one thing you’ve said that seems to be an attempt to explain why you want something that goes beyond “people have experiences” in the direction you’re calling “qualia”—the business about perception being a complex multi-stage process involving filtering and processing and whatnot—didn’t help me, for the reasons I’ve already given.
I wish you would offer a definition. You are repeatedly declining to do so, and then complaining that I object to your definition (which you haven’t given) or have another definition of my own (which I don’t) or that I am immovably committed to some theory (you don’t say what) that conflicts (you don’t say how) with something (you don’t say what) about qualia. Maybe you’re right—for instance, I might be committed to some theory without even recognizing the fact, because it seems so obvious to me. But if so, the only way you’re going to correct my error (I assume, at least for the sake of argument, that if I am wrong you do want to help me get less wrong, rather than merely to gloat at how wrong I am) is by showing me what I’m doing wrong, which you seem very unwilling to do. You just want to keep saying that I’m wrong, which so far as I can see accomplishes nothing.
That’s OK, because I’m not doing that, as I already tried to make clear. My problem is that I can’t tell what implications your definition has. Because you won’t tell me what it is.
It seems to me that in order for a definition I’m using to be good enough, a minimum requirement should be for me to have a reasonable idea what it is. In the present case, this requirement is not met.
Further, what I require to raise the issue is precisely the thing you are now saying is not part of what you mean by “qualia”, namely the understanding that insisting on the term “qualia” rather than merely saying that people experience things amounts to reifying whatever-it-is-”qualia”-is-about. You seem to be saying simultaneously (1) that speaking of “qualia” doesn’t commit one to reifying anything, and (2) that if I say “I don’t like the term ‘qualia’ because it seems like it may be reifying things that might be better not reified” I thereby demonstrate that I understand what you mean by “qualia” well enough. How can those possibly both be true?
I’m glad you agree with me about that. But you seem to be … offended? … that I might be concerned at the possibility that you might be trying to make a question-begging definition. Do you consider that the way you’ve been conducting your side of this discussion demonstrates your bona fides so clearly that no reasonable person in my position could be concerned that there might be such an issue?
Splendid! I believe, like Alice, that people have experience. I am not a naïve realist. Therefore, apparently, I believe in qualia in whatever sense you have in mind, even though I don’t yet understand what that sense is. Problem solved!
(At least, I think I am not a naïve realist. But—I’m sorry if this seems to be becoming a theme—I don’t really understand exactly what you mean by “naïve realist”, so maybe I’m wrong in thinking I’m not one. At any rate, I agree with what you said in apparent criticism of naïve realism, namely that when we perceive things it happens by means of a complicated process in which lots of things happen along the way.)
Not possible, since I wasn’t proposing to define anything. I assume you mean the inadequacy of my proposal of “people experience things” as the uncontroversially-true-and-needing-explaining part of what you might possibly mean by “people have qualia”. But, for the reasons I already gave and which you seem to have simply ignored without comment, I do not understand how what you said about naïve realism and the complexity of perception does anything to explain how “people have qualia” is better than “people experience things”.
It occurs to me that maybe you’re taking “things” in “people experience things” to be e.g. sunsets, and “people experience things” to mean something like “a straightforward X-experiences-Y relation holds between people and sunsets”, which might explain why you are accusing me of naïve realism. That isn’t what I mean; the difficulty I am having here is that the language we have available for talking about this stuff is full of implicit reifications and the like. Perhaps just “people experience” would be better. What is uncontroversial is not that people directly-interact-perceptually-with sunsets, nor that people have actual-reified-experience-types-called qualia, but that experiencing-events (-processes? all these terms are still too commital if taken literally) of the kind we are describing when we say things like “I saw a lovely sunset” happen. All the details of just what objects are involved are, I think, up for grabs and one of the things that makes me uneasy about “people have qualia” is that it strongly suggests particular answers to some of those questions that—because “question-begging definitions are bad, m’kay”—would be better left un-suggested.
Only in the following sense: you seem offended that I will not declare that people have qualia. (Again, that’s the full extent of what I’m doing, so if something else is what’s offending you then you might consider saying explicitly what it is.) So I want to know what you mean when you say that people have qualia, and how that differs from weaker propositions like “people experience things”.
So, sure, it’s selective: I am selectively seeking clarification of the things you’re talking about where I don’t understand what you mean. If you find that problematic, then I would like some help understanding why.
It is possible that something you say at the end of your comment above is intended to be an answer to my often-repeated question. (Of course you claim that you have “already said [it] several times”, and of course that is not true, but never mind.)
Well, for sure I agree that perceiving happens, and that how that feels to us is subjective (because how anything feels to us is subjective, because that’s what “subjective” means). Does that mean that I agree with what you mean when you say “we have qualia”, or not?
(That isn’t meant to be some sort of gotcha-question. I genuinely don’t know what the answer is. I am still trying to avoid needless reification, and I suspect that for reasons I am not currently able to anticipate you will find it unsatisfactory that I don’t use the exact phrase “have qualia”; it seems to me that what I said above precisely captures what you get by taking “we have qualia” + “qualia are subjectively experienced ways of perceiving” and trying to change that as little as possible while avoiding the (apparent?) reification I’m worried about; but maybe I’m wrong. And a part of my brain still harbours the uncharitable suspicion that despite your assurances above the reification is actually the point and you will not accept any wording that doesn’t carry the ontological commitment you say you aren’t trying to beg the question of. Again, this is an uncharitable suspicion and I am aware that it is; but I am having trouble figuring out better explanations for why you’re so concerned that I specifically embrace “qualia”, in so many words.)
I’ve already said that I’m using “qualia” in an ontologically non committal way.
I note from your 2016 comment that you use the word noncommittally yourself.
“Qualia are what happens in our brains (or our immaterial souls, or wherever we have experiences) in response to external stimulation, or similar things that arise in other ways (e.g., in dreams).”
As I have explained, equating qualia and experiences doesn’t sufficiently emphasise the subjective aspects.
“Experience” can be used in contexts like “experience a sunset” where the thing experienced is entirely objective, or contexts like “experience existential despair” ,where it’s a subjective feeling. Only the second kind of use overlaps with “qualia”. Hence, “qualia” is often briefly defined as “subjective experience”.
Note that “experience” is just as much of a noun as “quale”, so it has just as much of reification issue.
None.
Then dont reify. The reification issue exists only in your imagination.
How do you know it’s different from what you mean? You were comfortable using the word in 2016. This conversation started when I used a series of examples to define “qualia”, which you objected to as not being a real definition.
“It’s easy to give examples of things we think of as qualia. I’m not so sure that that means it’s easy to give a satisfactory definition of “qualia”.′
But when I asked you to define “matter”...you started off with a listof examples!
“First, purely handwavily and to give some informal idea of the boundaries, here are some things that I would call “matter” and some possibly-similar things that I would not. Matter: electrons, neutrons, bricks, stars, air, people, the London Philharmonic Orchestra (considered as a particular bunch of particular people). Not matter: photons, electric fields, empty space (to whatever extent such a thing exists), the London Philharmonic Orchestra (considered as a thing whose detailed composition changes over time), the god believed in by Christians (should he exist), minds. Doubtful: black holes; the gods believed in by the ancient Greeks (should they exist).”
The only thing I’m doing that is different is going for a minimal and common sense approach, rather than a technical definition on the lines of “that which is ineffable, incorrigible, irreducible and repeatable. Hence why the list of examples: it’s hard to deny that ones pains feel like something, even when one can quibble about incorrigibility or whatever.
Again, that would be an ontology of qualia. Again, I am offering a definition, not a complete theory. Again, you shouldn’t be rejecting evidence because you don’t like it’s theoretical implications.
Naive realism is not the denial of experience: it’s treating experience as objective.
You can look up definitions, just as you can for “qualia”.
Which have an objective aspect -- things happen differently in the brains of different perceivers—and a subjective aspect—things seem different to different observers. Again, the subjective aspect is what’s relevant.
No, it just seems to you that way.
No, it doesn’t mean anything so vacuous. If two people perform mental arithmetic , that is not subjective because maths is objective...they get the same answer, or one of them is wrong. “Subjective” doesn’t just mean that individual apprehensions vary, it means there is no right or wrong about the variation Some people like the way marmite tastes to them, others don’t. Neither is right or wrong, but the marmite is always the exact same substance.
Well, you seem to be having trouble understanding what “subjective” means.
Your accusations of inconsistency
Yup, I used the term “qualia” in 2016 (in response to someone else making an argument that used the term). I don’t always pick every possible fight :-).
(In that case, turchin was making another specific argument and used the word “qualia” in passing. I disagreed with the other specific argument and argued against that. The specific word “qualia” was a side issue at most. Here, the specific point at issue is whether everyone needs to agree that “we have qualia”.)
You asked for a definition of “matter” and I (1) gave a list of examples and counterexamples and near-the-boundary examples, (2) prefaced with an explicit note that this was preliminary handwaving, (3) followed by an attempt at a precise definition distinguishing matter from not-matter. You haven’t done any of that for “qualia”, just given a list of examples, and that (not the fact that you did give a list of examples) is what I was complaining about. “It’s easy to give examples … I’m not so sure that that means it’s easy to give a satisfactory definition”.
Your accusations of wilful ignorance and/or laziness
Yes, I could look up definitions of “naïve realism” or of “qualia”. As it happens, I have. They don’t tell me what you mean by those terms, and definitions of them do not always agree with one another. Which is why I keep asking you what you mean by terms you are using, and get frustrated when you seem reluctant to tell me.
For instance, here we read that “the naïve realist claims that, when we successfully see a tomato, that tomato is literally a constituent of that experience, such that an experience of that fundamental kind could not have occurred in the absence of that object”. Here we read that “naïve realism is the human tendency to believe that we see the world around us objectively, and that people who disagree with us must be uninformed, irrational, or biased”. In a comment of yours elsewhere in this thread you say “People generally and incorrectly assume that colours are objective properties (hence the consternation caused, amongst some, by the dress illusion). That’s called naive realism, and it’s scientifically wrong.”
(I remark in passing that you also said that the difference between two people who agree that people experience things, one of whom says that we have qualia and one of whom doesn’t, is that the latter has to be a naïve realist; if you are in fact claiming that “we have qualia” means something that is straightforwardly implied by “colours are not objective properties of the objects whose colours they are” then, yay, it turns out that I believe that we have qualia and we can stop arguing. But I’m pretty sure this will not in fact be enough.)
These three things are not entirely unlike one another, but no two of them are the same. Your comment is offering an example rather than a definition, but it is not in fact an example of the first definition and I’m doubtful about its being an example of the second.
Or I could look up “qualia” in, say, the MIT Encyclopedia of Cognitive Science, whose entry for that subject begins as follows—my annotations in square brackets.
Here we have clear acknowledgement that the term is used differently by different people, and (I think deliberately) something that falls short of an actual clear definition.
Or I could go to an ordinary dictionary, say the superlative Oxford English Dictionary, the relevant part of whose definition reads: “a quality or property as perceived or experienced by a person”. Which seems to presuppose (at least one version of) “naïve realism”: these qualities or properties are presumably of things in the external world and this definition seems at risk of importing the objects themselves into our qualia.
(But: people have experiences; often those experiences are “of” qualities or properties of objects in the world around them; if you don’t consider that to be acknowledging that “people have qualia”, what do you think is missing other than a specific shibboleth-phrasing?)
Actual discussion of the issues
I’m not sure whether “that which is ineffable, incorrigible, irreducible and repeatable” is a (presumably very partial) description of what you mean when you talk about qualia, rather than just a random list of adjectives. If it is, then it’s a nice illustration of why I am reluctant to say (as I think you want me to) “yes, sure, I agree that there are qualia”. I strongly suspect that what most people who talk about “qualia” mean when they use that word goes way beyond the specific handwavy examples they offer, and I don’t want to be thought (by them or by others) to be endorsing any of the other stuff until we’ve talked about that other stuff explicitly. I agree with you that people experience things; I do not think it’s clear that they have experiences, or equivalence-classes-of-experiences, or whatever, that are ineffable, incorrigible, irreducible and repeatable. Maybe they do. I’m not saying they definitely don’t. Just that those further claims are substantial claims, and that I think they are the sort of thing that “qualia” commonly means even to people who say “oh, no, all I mean by qualia is that stuff that happens when you look at a red thing”, and that part of the difference between “I agree that people experience things” and I agree that people have qualia” is that the latter is liable to give the impression that I endorse those substantial claims, and that if you want my assent to those claims then we actually need to discuss them.
Saying that you’re going for a minimal and common-sense approach is all very well, but in practice people are not that great at using words that have connotations in ways that abandon those connotations. This is also why I don’t think an atheist should play along if a certain kind of theist says “well, let’s just take ‘God’ as a sort of shorthand for humanity’s highest and best aspirations”, and I don’t think a creationist should play along if a biologist says “look, all ‘evolution’ means is change of allele frequencies in populations”.
You distinguish (I think this is the nearest you get to answering my question about what exactly you mean by qualia) between two kinds of things we might say about experience: “objective” (things happen differently in the brains of different people) and “subjective” (things seem different to different people) and say it’s the subjective side you’re concerned with. I am not actually convinced that “things seem different to different people” is a very meaningful proposition—that seems to presuppose some way of comparing experiences across people, and while obviously it’s easy to say that my experience of looking at a green thing is not the same as your experience of being struck gently on the head with a golf club I don’t really know what it would mean to say that my experience of looking at a green thing is or isn’t the same as your experience of looking at a green thing, and I strongly suspect that there is no answer.
Still, for sure people experience things and we can e.g. ask someone what they feel like. Does that mean that I agree that “people have qualia”? If not, what do you think is missing other than a specific shibboleth-phrasing?