There are some groups with which I enjoy discussing politics, and some which I believe it is effective to do so, as it leads to decisions I make about where to live, what donations to make, how to vote (though that’s pretty small impact), who to publicly support, etc.
In all cases, they’re relatively small groups, with enough face-to-face contact that I can estimate the levels of rationality and knowledge, and tailor the discussions to what I can learn, more than how I can convince them of something (note: many times there _is_ an adversarial tone to the truth-seeking. I think this works well in person, and very badly online).
My main resonance with those threads is that politics (at all levels, from family to office to town to nation to world) is baked into humanity, and cannot be ignored. And simultaneously, the topics can’t be abstracted or generalized enough to actually discuss dispassionately in almost any group situation. Politics is prisoner’s dilemma with participants (including myself) whose motives are unknown and inconsistent, known to be at best partially-rational. When I can play with a consistent group of identified participants, I can learn which mechanisms work for each. When I play simultaneously with a large group, which statistically will include some always-defect, I fall into the defect-for-defense pattern.
I do, in fact get mind-killed. Often by what I perceive as my correspondents’ mind-killing, so internally it feels like I’m tit-for-tat, but it’s not clear that there’s enough bandwidth to ever get back to a good equilibrium.
So, please do put individual thought into it, and if you have the right groups of people discuss in those groups. But not here, and probably not anywhere online in large groups. For those places, just recognize that you’re there (as are most participants) to win people to your side, not to learn.
I hope I don’t come across as saying that this is a forum for talking about politics in the specific.
The article is more a reflection of how the “politics is the mind-killer” perspective impacted me and my broader relationship to politics and policy, probably for the worst.
Just because it’s not a great topic to discuss in this particular context ,and in some other situations, this doesn’t make it a valuable or important topic to discuss in other contexts. (And to be clear, I haven’t taken your comments as suggesting as such!)
I’d go as far as arguing that if rationalists can better discuss politics effectively with people who are less rationally-inclined, this might go some way towards raising the sanity waterline in a really important domain.
There are some groups with which I enjoy discussing politics, and some which I believe it is effective to do so, as it leads to decisions I make about where to live, what donations to make, how to vote (though that’s pretty small impact), who to publicly support, etc.
In all cases, they’re relatively small groups, with enough face-to-face contact that I can estimate the levels of rationality and knowledge, and tailor the discussions to what I can learn, more than how I can convince them of something (note: many times there _is_ an adversarial tone to the truth-seeking. I think this works well in person, and very badly online).
My main resonance with those threads is that politics (at all levels, from family to office to town to nation to world) is baked into humanity, and cannot be ignored. And simultaneously, the topics can’t be abstracted or generalized enough to actually discuss dispassionately in almost any group situation. Politics is prisoner’s dilemma with participants (including myself) whose motives are unknown and inconsistent, known to be at best partially-rational. When I can play with a consistent group of identified participants, I can learn which mechanisms work for each. When I play simultaneously with a large group, which statistically will include some always-defect, I fall into the defect-for-defense pattern.
I do, in fact get mind-killed. Often by what I perceive as my correspondents’ mind-killing, so internally it feels like I’m tit-for-tat, but it’s not clear that there’s enough bandwidth to ever get back to a good equilibrium.
So, please do put individual thought into it, and if you have the right groups of people discuss in those groups. But not here, and probably not anywhere online in large groups. For those places, just recognize that you’re there (as are most participants) to win people to your side, not to learn.
Great points.
I hope I don’t come across as saying that this is a forum for talking about politics in the specific.
The article is more a reflection of how the “politics is the mind-killer” perspective impacted me and my broader relationship to politics and policy, probably for the worst.
Just because it’s not a great topic to discuss in this particular context ,and in some other situations, this doesn’t make it a valuable or important topic to discuss in other contexts. (And to be clear, I haven’t taken your comments as suggesting as such!)
I’d go as far as arguing that if rationalists can better discuss politics effectively with people who are less rationally-inclined, this might go some way towards raising the sanity waterline in a really important domain.