Hagrid’s story seems to be unchanged, and Harry is aware of it—he was told he was responsible for getting the conviction overturned and the wand returned. The point is more that Lucius Malfoy doesn’t directly control the Wizengamot. His main tool at this trial seems to be rhetoric, drumming up righteous indignation and playing the part of the aggrieved Noble. If Harry stops focusing on Lucius and in stead focuses on the individual voters, he can find arguments to sway different sections.
Hagrid’s case sets a precedent which makes it obvious the Wizengamot is playing to a double-standard in this case, but he would certainly have to come up with more arguments. Another point he could make is that Hermione had no motive. Another is that her behaviour before the event was completely out of character. He has Hermione right there, and veritaserum on hand, so if he asked her the right questions under veritaserum he could probably find out about the huge chunk of missing time she has in her memory—good evidence that she was psychologically manipulated.
if [Harry] asked [Hermione] the right questions under veritaserum he could probably find out about the huge chunk of missing time she has in her memory
What huge chunk of time is missing from her memory?
The only moments she misses are (according to Harry’s theory)
the moment in which she remembers seeing Draco and Snape plotting against her, which was implanted by a FMC and removed after the duel (leaving all the true but misleading memories of being furious at Draco in place)
and a short time intervall after the duel, where the false memories of her performing the Blood Cooling charm were inserted.
In addition, we can assume that these memory charms were very precisely executed because of their utmost importance to the plan. Thus, even the transitions between these false memories and the true memories surrounding them would probably be unnoticable. (Remember, a legilimency expert already checked her.)
(Of course, there is also the Groundhog Day incident when she really lost a huge chunk of time – but it’s not related to this event in any way that’s obvious to Harry. I’m not aware of any evidence that he even knows about that.)
I was referring to the Groundhog Day incident. Harry probably isn’t aware of it, but could come across it by asking simple questions of Hermione like “why were you so angry that day of the battle?”. Hermione seems aware that she is missing memories here, due to her “lost track of time” statement to Susan.
Thinking of what Draco might have done to her and then obliviated seems a reasonable explanation for her anger towards him during the battle, and perhaps why she can believe that she did attempt to murder him.
Most of those points were already brought up and ignored. Everyone at the “trial” came in knowing exactly which way to vote, and Harry doesn’t have time to alter their individual opinions. Its pretty clear that if Hermione had never come into contact with Harry, but still wound up in the same situation (inexplicably) things would be very different. Although I do like how you’re idea calls back the opening to the chapter. Also, Harry just talking makes for kinda poor drama. Where getting close to the climax of this section and I’d be pretty surprised if it ended with Harry getting to know the members of the Wizengamot, but i could be wrong.
Judging by Fudge and Umbridge’s demeanor, the voters might put more weight on the words of the Boy Who Lived than on those of Dumbledore, especially as Dumbledore wasn’t phrasing his arguments in such a way as to appeal to the parts of the audience who didn’t already support him.
I agree with your point about it making a poor climax though. I think it’s quite unlikely for this reason, but still like the idea of Harry suddenly gaining super-lawyer powers :).
Hagrid’s case sets a precedent which makes it obvious the Wizengamot is playing to a double-standard in this case
Not really. The Wizengamot has an explicit policy of punishing a wizard (or half-wizard) who murdered a mudblood less than mudblood who tried to murder a noble wizard, the last scion of a Most Ancient House. It’s only a double standard to you; it’s a valid and relevant difference to them.
True, it would only make a valid argument if there were some swing voters who were more concerned with fairness than with supporting the power structure of the nobility, which is unlikely.
I wish I were better at correctly imagining other people’s mental states, and knew lots more about them. As it is, I can’t come up with anything I have reasonable evidence for, for or against your claim or even relevant to it at all. How can I know how (many) other people think of themselves?
That’s why I made my claim about fictional characters, where I happened to be rather more certain. The two claims are syntactically similar but semantically unrelated. I do very much want to discuss, and learn more about, how real people think of themselves, so let’s talk about that.
You say many people think of themselves as villains. How would they unpack this word if asked? That they do things they consider morally or ethically wrong, or that others consider to be so (but they disagree)? That they do those things with insufficient (to themselves) justification? That they enjoy them? That they pattern-match themselves (on what?) to famous story characters who are widely called villains?
You say many people think of themselves as villains. How would they unpack this word if asked?
I was replying as if your ‘villian’ claim was an extension of the previous sentence “They see what they’re currently doing as being right and fair and just!”
Some people do things that they consider not right, unfair or unjust and if they happen to think about it feel guilty briefly then keep doing it. Some people have conceptions of what right, fair and just are but consider them childish concepts and just don’t care.
Some people do things that they consider not right, unfair or unjust and if they happen to think about it feel guilty briefly then keep doing it.
How do you know this?
It is, as you noted, a truism many people believe in that “almost nobody is a villain in their own mind”, and instead people have justifications, special pleading, and other thoughts that excuse them to themselves.
Both this and what you say is compatible with the world as I see it, I have no direct evidence one way or the other. What’s yours?
It is, as you noted, a truism many people believe in that “almost nobody is a villain in their own mind”, and instead people have justifications, special pleading, and other thoughts that excuse them to themselves.
My spin, of course, is that those people make up stories like that because they are reluctant to admit that other people are less insecure and don’t need to make up as many excuses for themselves.
Hagrid’s story seems to be unchanged, and Harry is aware of it—he was told he was responsible for getting the conviction overturned and the wand returned. The point is more that Lucius Malfoy doesn’t directly control the Wizengamot. His main tool at this trial seems to be rhetoric, drumming up righteous indignation and playing the part of the aggrieved Noble. If Harry stops focusing on Lucius and in stead focuses on the individual voters, he can find arguments to sway different sections.
Hagrid’s case sets a precedent which makes it obvious the Wizengamot is playing to a double-standard in this case, but he would certainly have to come up with more arguments. Another point he could make is that Hermione had no motive. Another is that her behaviour before the event was completely out of character. He has Hermione right there, and veritaserum on hand, so if he asked her the right questions under veritaserum he could probably find out about the huge chunk of missing time she has in her memory—good evidence that she was psychologically manipulated.
What huge chunk of time is missing from her memory?
The only moments she misses are (according to Harry’s theory)
the moment in which she remembers seeing Draco and Snape plotting against her, which was implanted by a FMC and removed after the duel (leaving all the true but misleading memories of being furious at Draco in place)
and a short time intervall after the duel, where the false memories of her performing the Blood Cooling charm were inserted.
In addition, we can assume that these memory charms were very precisely executed because of their utmost importance to the plan. Thus, even the transitions between these false memories and the true memories surrounding them would probably be unnoticable. (Remember, a legilimency expert already checked her.)
(Of course, there is also the Groundhog Day incident when she really lost a huge chunk of time – but it’s not related to this event in any way that’s obvious to Harry. I’m not aware of any evidence that he even knows about that.)
I was referring to the Groundhog Day incident. Harry probably isn’t aware of it, but could come across it by asking simple questions of Hermione like “why were you so angry that day of the battle?”. Hermione seems aware that she is missing memories here, due to her “lost track of time” statement to Susan.
Thinking of what Draco might have done to her and then obliviated seems a reasonable explanation for her anger towards him during the battle, and perhaps why she can believe that she did attempt to murder him.
Most of those points were already brought up and ignored. Everyone at the “trial” came in knowing exactly which way to vote, and Harry doesn’t have time to alter their individual opinions. Its pretty clear that if Hermione had never come into contact with Harry, but still wound up in the same situation (inexplicably) things would be very different. Although I do like how you’re idea calls back the opening to the chapter. Also, Harry just talking makes for kinda poor drama. Where getting close to the climax of this section and I’d be pretty surprised if it ended with Harry getting to know the members of the Wizengamot, but i could be wrong.
Judging by Fudge and Umbridge’s demeanor, the voters might put more weight on the words of the Boy Who Lived than on those of Dumbledore, especially as Dumbledore wasn’t phrasing his arguments in such a way as to appeal to the parts of the audience who didn’t already support him.
I agree with your point about it making a poor climax though. I think it’s quite unlikely for this reason, but still like the idea of Harry suddenly gaining super-lawyer powers :).
Not really. The Wizengamot has an explicit policy of punishing a wizard (or half-wizard) who murdered a mudblood less than mudblood who tried to murder a noble wizard, the last scion of a Most Ancient House. It’s only a double standard to you; it’s a valid and relevant difference to them.
True, it would only make a valid argument if there were some swing voters who were more concerned with fairness than with supporting the power structure of the nobility, which is unlikely.
They don’t see it as fairness! They see what they’re currently doing as being right and fair and just! Nobody is a villain in their own minds.
Grossly exaggerated truism. Plenty of people do but just don’t care.
I wish I were better at correctly imagining other people’s mental states, and knew lots more about them. As it is, I can’t come up with anything I have reasonable evidence for, for or against your claim or even relevant to it at all. How can I know how (many) other people think of themselves?
That’s why I made my claim about fictional characters, where I happened to be rather more certain. The two claims are syntactically similar but semantically unrelated. I do very much want to discuss, and learn more about, how real people think of themselves, so let’s talk about that.
You say many people think of themselves as villains. How would they unpack this word if asked? That they do things they consider morally or ethically wrong, or that others consider to be so (but they disagree)? That they do those things with insufficient (to themselves) justification? That they enjoy them? That they pattern-match themselves (on what?) to famous story characters who are widely called villains?
I was replying as if your ‘villian’ claim was an extension of the previous sentence “They see what they’re currently doing as being right and fair and just!”
Some people do things that they consider not right, unfair or unjust and if they happen to think about it feel guilty briefly then keep doing it. Some people have conceptions of what right, fair and just are but consider them childish concepts and just don’t care.
How do you know this?
It is, as you noted, a truism many people believe in that “almost nobody is a villain in their own mind”, and instead people have justifications, special pleading, and other thoughts that excuse them to themselves.
Both this and what you say is compatible with the world as I see it, I have no direct evidence one way or the other. What’s yours?
SWIM told me?
My spin, of course, is that those people make up stories like that because they are reluctant to admit that other people are less insecure and don’t need to make up as many excuses for themselves.
SWIM being?
It’s a term used when explicitly declaring a personal anecdote seems inappropriate but you still want to make one. For example:
“SWIM is half way through a ten week testosterone cypionate cycle, what should he use for post cycle therapy?”
“SWIM just tried combining ecstasy, LSD and licking the back of a cane toad all at once. Best. High. Ever!”
(Someone Who Isn’t Me.)
Which is why I didn’t use the word “justice”.