Hello, I am Nicholas, an undergraduate studying music at Portland State University. Even though my (at least academic) primary area of study is the arts, the philosophy of rationality and science has always been a large part of my intellectual pursuits. I found this site about a year ago and read many articles, but I recently decided to try to participate. Even before I was a rationalist, my education was entirely self-driven by a desire to seek the truth, even when the truth conflicted with what was widely believed by those around me (teachers, parents, etc.) My idea of what “the truth” means has changed significantly over time, especially after learning about rationality theory, Baye’s theorem, and many of the concepts on this site, but the core emotional drive for knowledge has never wavered.
I have read Politics is the Mind Killer and understand the desire to avoid political discussions, but I feel that my conception of a “good” political discussion is significantly different than most users of this site. I care nothing for US style partisan politics. Far from exclusively arguing for “my home team”, my political ideas have changed dramatically over the years, and are always based on actual existing phenomenon rather than words like “socialism”, “capitalism, “republican” or “democrat”. I would be interested to know what led to this ban on political thought. Is it a widely held view of the community that political discussion is inherently devoid of rationality, or was it a decision made out of historical necessity, perhaps because of an observed trend of the quality of political discussions? In either case, I would like to gain a better understanding of the arguments and attempt to refute them.
More the latter than the former.. a social norm stemming from the pragmatic observation that discussions about politics tended to have certain properties that lowered their value.
The question recurs regularly, usually in the form of “well, but, if we’re really rational, shouldn’t we be able to talk about politics?”
To my mind, the people asking the question frequently neglect the second-order effects of regularly talking about politics on the sort of people who will join LW and what their primary goals are.
To my mind, the people asking the question frequently neglect the second-order effects of regularly talking about politics on the sort of people who will join LW and what their primary goals are.
Could you clarify this point a little? I though the primary goals of LW include refining and promoting human rationality, and I see no reason why this goal would not apply to politics. Especially since irrational political theories can have a directly negative effect on the quality of life for many people.
The Internet is full of people who seem to have as one of their primary goals to expound their chosen tribe’s political affiliation and defend it against all opposition, even in spaces predominantly dedicated to something else.
If LessWrong becomes a place where local norms allow discussion of the nominal rationality of Libertarianism, or Liberalism, or Conservatism, or whatever, and contrasting it with the demonstrable irrationality of other political ideologies, I expect that a subset of those people will devote significant resources to expounding their chosen tribe’s political affiliation and defend it against one another, taking care to from time to time intone the magic formulas “it would be rational to” and “that’s not rational” to mask, perhaps even from themselves, the reality of what was going on.
I’d find LW a less useful community were that to happen. I suspect I’m not alone.
I though the primary goals of LW include refining and promoting human rationality, and I see no reason why this goal would not apply to politics.
Can you clarify this point a little? I don’t see where I’m suggesting that this goal doesn’t apply to politics. What I’m saying is I’m skeptical that a public internet group like LW can achieve this goal as applied to politics.
The primary goal of the present LessWrong community is to refine and promote human rationality. The primary goal of people who would register to join political conversations on LessWrong is liable to be different.
The primary goal of the present LessWrong community is to refine and promote human rationality. The primary goal of people who would register to join political conversations on LessWrong is liable to be different.
Tastefully left unsaid, is that giving people interested in political conversations an incentive to join Less Wrong could erode the quality of discussion. This is an important point.
However, another important point is that maybe it’s really important to the betterment of the world that there be a place on the internet, another site perhaps, where it is appropriate to discuss policy, but where the merits of the argument, and the accuracy of facts are of paramount importance. Such a site wouldn’t be perfect, but surely it could be an improvement over what I’ve seen on the internet.
Such a site could borrow from the scoring mechanisms that have worked on this site, but would need significant refinement. For example, any post which engaged is demagoguery would need to lead to severe chastisement. Another refinement would be tools that help to break an argument down. E.g. to decide which sentences in a post are factually accurate, and which sentences are fallacious (mockup).
Additionally, since you can’t talk about policy without treading on normative issues (“equality of opportunity is more important than helping out the disadvantaged” or “human rights are more important than animal rights”) the site would need to find a way to carve these issues out of the discussion; not ignore them, just find a way to lay them succinctly to the side (I don’t know how).
Personally, I think the most important issue in politics is how to reform politics. I.e. how to ensure that our institutions function for “the common good” by making changes to rules/practices so that individual self-interest is channeled toward what’s good for the group. I think this is a sound principle that can inform but not decide many issues.
Maybe building a website in which reasonably rational policy choices are made could be a first step toward reforming our political institutions.
Hello, I am Nicholas, an undergraduate studying music at Portland State University. Even though my (at least academic) primary area of study is the arts, the philosophy of rationality and science has always been a large part of my intellectual pursuits. I found this site about a year ago and read many articles, but I recently decided to try to participate. Even before I was a rationalist, my education was entirely self-driven by a desire to seek the truth, even when the truth conflicted with what was widely believed by those around me (teachers, parents, etc.) My idea of what “the truth” means has changed significantly over time, especially after learning about rationality theory, Baye’s theorem, and many of the concepts on this site, but the core emotional drive for knowledge has never wavered.
I have read Politics is the Mind Killer and understand the desire to avoid political discussions, but I feel that my conception of a “good” political discussion is significantly different than most users of this site. I care nothing for US style partisan politics. Far from exclusively arguing for “my home team”, my political ideas have changed dramatically over the years, and are always based on actual existing phenomenon rather than words like “socialism”, “capitalism, “republican” or “democrat”. I would be interested to know what led to this ban on political thought. Is it a widely held view of the community that political discussion is inherently devoid of rationality, or was it a decision made out of historical necessity, perhaps because of an observed trend of the quality of political discussions? In either case, I would like to gain a better understanding of the arguments and attempt to refute them.
More the latter than the former.. a social norm stemming from the pragmatic observation that discussions about politics tended to have certain properties that lowered their value.
The question recurs regularly, usually in the form of “well, but, if we’re really rational, shouldn’t we be able to talk about politics?”
To my mind, the people asking the question frequently neglect the second-order effects of regularly talking about politics on the sort of people who will join LW and what their primary goals are.
Could you clarify this point a little? I though the primary goals of LW include refining and promoting human rationality, and I see no reason why this goal would not apply to politics. Especially since irrational political theories can have a directly negative effect on the quality of life for many people.
Sure.
The Internet is full of people who seem to have as one of their primary goals to expound their chosen tribe’s political affiliation and defend it against all opposition, even in spaces predominantly dedicated to something else.
If LessWrong becomes a place where local norms allow discussion of the nominal rationality of Libertarianism, or Liberalism, or Conservatism, or whatever, and contrasting it with the demonstrable irrationality of other political ideologies, I expect that a subset of those people will devote significant resources to expounding their chosen tribe’s political affiliation and defend it against one another, taking care to from time to time intone the magic formulas “it would be rational to” and “that’s not rational” to mask, perhaps even from themselves, the reality of what was going on.
I’d find LW a less useful community were that to happen. I suspect I’m not alone.
Can you clarify this point a little? I don’t see where I’m suggesting that this goal doesn’t apply to politics. What I’m saying is I’m skeptical that a public internet group like LW can achieve this goal as applied to politics.
The primary goal of the present LessWrong community is to refine and promote human rationality. The primary goal of people who would register to join political conversations on LessWrong is liable to be different.
Tastefully left unsaid, is that giving people interested in political conversations an incentive to join Less Wrong could erode the quality of discussion. This is an important point.
However, another important point is that maybe it’s really important to the betterment of the world that there be a place on the internet, another site perhaps, where it is appropriate to discuss policy, but where the merits of the argument, and the accuracy of facts are of paramount importance. Such a site wouldn’t be perfect, but surely it could be an improvement over what I’ve seen on the internet.
Such a site could borrow from the scoring mechanisms that have worked on this site, but would need significant refinement. For example, any post which engaged is demagoguery would need to lead to severe chastisement. Another refinement would be tools that help to break an argument down. E.g. to decide which sentences in a post are factually accurate, and which sentences are fallacious (mockup).
Additionally, since you can’t talk about policy without treading on normative issues (“equality of opportunity is more important than helping out the disadvantaged” or “human rights are more important than animal rights”) the site would need to find a way to carve these issues out of the discussion; not ignore them, just find a way to lay them succinctly to the side (I don’t know how).
Personally, I think the most important issue in politics is how to reform politics. I.e. how to ensure that our institutions function for “the common good” by making changes to rules/practices so that individual self-interest is channeled toward what’s good for the group. I think this is a sound principle that can inform but not decide many issues.
Maybe building a website in which reasonably rational policy choices are made could be a first step toward reforming our political institutions.