If it should happen that tomorrow I find myself in the state of believing I would be happier were you dead, what do you think I ought to do about that?
I mean, I think we can agree that I ought not take steps to end your life, nor should I threaten to do so. (Multiheaded did neither of these things.)
But would it really be unacceptable for me to observe out loud that that was the state I was in? Why?
But would it really be unacceptable for me to observe out loud that that was the state I was in?
That depends on what it contributes to the discussion. “I’m too tired to talk about this now” or “I find it distressing that you think a world with less stigma against infanticide would be fun” help us understand where the other is coming from, even if they don’t help us understand the topic better.
“I wish you were dead” detracts from the discussion.
Multiheaded said his/her (it’s her, right? >_>) utility would increase, not happiness. If this is true, then, ignoring oppurtunity costs dead is what daenerys and other baby killing advocators ought be, subjectively-objectively for multiheaded.
edit: but it’s almost definetely not true. Utility was probably being conflated with something, or Multiheaded was biased by emotional state (was REAL MAD, in less technical terms.)
Can somebody else please give answering this a crack? Because I think I am too upset that this question is even disputed to be able to provide a clear answer. Best shot:
To me it seems obvious that there falls a category of Things You Shouldn’t Say To People. “I wish you were dead” and it’s variants definitely falls under that category. The utility you get from saying it is less than the disutility I get from hearing it. Also it leads to a poisonous society that no one wants to participate in.
Edit: I am amused that my post admitting to having an emotional reaction affect my reasoning abilities got downvoted.
For what it’s worth, I don’t believe you deserved the downvote. I also don’t believe most of the other comments in this thread deserved to be downvoted, especially since it makes it far less likely that anyone else will give answering my question a crack, since it’s mostly invisible now.
That said, I do understand the “it’s OK for it to be true but you can’t say it” mainstream social convention, which is what you seem to be invoking.
It just doesn’t seem to fit very well with the stated goals of this site. For my own part, if someone wants me dead, I want to know they want me dead. We can’t engage with or improve a reality we’re not allowed to even admit to. (Which is also why I dispute the “poisonous society” claim. A society where it’s understood that people might want me dead and there’s no way for me to know because of course they won’t ever say it seems far more poisonous to me.)
I never declared Crocker’s Rules on this site. If you would like to, you can, and people can tell you when they want you dead.
However blanket statements such as “I wish everyone with were dead” are never ok, because you can’t know that absolutely everyone who holds Position X has declared Crocker’s Rules. Even if everyone who participated in the discussion under position X has declared Crocker’s Rules, there might be lurkers who haven’t.
I suppose an exception to that might be “I wish everyone who has declared Crocker’s Rules was dead”, but I can’t see why anyone would make that statement.
I’m still curious, however, about your answer to my original question. If it should happen that tomorrow I find myself in the state of believing I would be happier were you dead, what do you think I ought to do about that?
Or, if the answer is different: If it should happen that tomorrow you find myself in the state of believing you would be happier were I dead, what do you think you ought to do about that? (Given that I too have not declared Crocker’s Rules.)
I mean, I understand that you don’t think we should actually tell each other about it, but I’m wondering if that’s all there is to say on the matter… just keep the feeling secret and go on about our business normally?
For my own part, that’s not the threshold I consider Crocker’s Rules to endorse crossing, but I suppose reasonable people can disagree on where that threshold is and over time the actual threshold will come to resemble some aggregated function of our opinions on the matter, and announcements like yours are part of that process.
If it should happen that tomorrow I find myself in the state of believing I would be happier were you dead, what do you think I ought to do about that?
I mean, I think we can agree that I ought not take steps to end your life, nor should I threaten to do so. (Multiheaded did neither of these things.)
But would it really be unacceptable for me to observe out loud that that was the state I was in?
Why?
That depends on what it contributes to the discussion. “I’m too tired to talk about this now” or “I find it distressing that you think a world with less stigma against infanticide would be fun” help us understand where the other is coming from, even if they don’t help us understand the topic better.
“I wish you were dead” detracts from the discussion.
Multiheaded said his/her (it’s her, right? >_>) utility would increase, not happiness. If this is true, then, ignoring oppurtunity costs dead is what daenerys and other baby killing advocators ought be, subjectively-objectively for multiheaded.
edit: but it’s almost definetely not true. Utility was probably being conflated with something, or Multiheaded was biased by emotional state (was REAL MAD, in less technical terms.)
Can somebody else please give answering this a crack? Because I think I am too upset that this question is even disputed to be able to provide a clear answer. Best shot:
To me it seems obvious that there falls a category of Things You Shouldn’t Say To People. “I wish you were dead” and it’s variants definitely falls under that category. The utility you get from saying it is less than the disutility I get from hearing it. Also it leads to a poisonous society that no one wants to participate in.
Edit: I am amused that my post admitting to having an emotional reaction affect my reasoning abilities got downvoted.
For what it’s worth, I don’t believe you deserved the downvote. I also don’t believe most of the other comments in this thread deserved to be downvoted, especially since it makes it far less likely that anyone else will give answering my question a crack, since it’s mostly invisible now.
That said, I do understand the “it’s OK for it to be true but you can’t say it” mainstream social convention, which is what you seem to be invoking.
It just doesn’t seem to fit very well with the stated goals of this site. For my own part, if someone wants me dead, I want to know they want me dead. We can’t engage with or improve a reality we’re not allowed to even admit to. (Which is also why I dispute the “poisonous society” claim. A society where it’s understood that people might want me dead and there’s no way for me to know because of course they won’t ever say it seems far more poisonous to me.)
Slightly better next day answer:
I never declared Crocker’s Rules on this site. If you would like to, you can, and people can tell you when they want you dead.
However blanket statements such as “I wish everyone with were dead” are never ok, because you can’t know that absolutely everyone who holds Position X has declared Crocker’s Rules. Even if everyone who participated in the discussion under position X has declared Crocker’s Rules, there might be lurkers who haven’t.
I suppose an exception to that might be “I wish everyone who has declared Crocker’s Rules was dead”, but I can’t see why anyone would make that statement.
I’m still curious, however, about your answer to my original question. If it should happen that tomorrow I find myself in the state of believing I would be happier were you dead, what do you think I ought to do about that?
Or, if the answer is different: If it should happen that tomorrow you find myself in the state of believing you would be happier were I dead, what do you think you ought to do about that? (Given that I too have not declared Crocker’s Rules.)
I mean, I understand that you don’t think we should actually tell each other about it, but I’m wondering if that’s all there is to say on the matter… just keep the feeling secret and go on about our business normally?
That’s fair.
For my own part, that’s not the threshold I consider Crocker’s Rules to endorse crossing, but I suppose reasonable people can disagree on where that threshold is and over time the actual threshold will come to resemble some aggregated function of our opinions on the matter, and announcements like yours are part of that process.
Sorry to have upset you. Thanks for answering my question.
Believe me, I really feel that sentiment much stronger in regards to infanticide than you feel it in regards to passive-aggressive rudeness.