Less Wrong in general strives for a lower degree of hostility on average than the average message board.
I don’t know about the “average message board,” but I would say there is still a good deal of hostility here, both in the sense of people being resistant to evidence which contradicts their position as well as plain nastiness.
For example, a few posts back, komponisto accused me of asking questions which were “disingenuous.” When I pointed out that I had made it reasonably clear from the get-go that the questions were for rhetorical purposes, he still insisted that my questions were disingenuous. (Actually, he made his comments more personal by referring to “your disingenuousness ”)
I think the non-hostile thing to do would have been to say “Ok, I agree that your questions were not disingenuous but I still object to them for the following reasons . . . ”
Now that you’ve seen that sentence I added late, do you have a response? Because not responding really calls into question whether you really want to persuade us at all. One might even assert ducking that point was . . . disingenuous.
Now that you’ve seen that sentence I added late, do you have a response?
Sure, I think that sometimes laying things out positively is an effective way to make an argument; and sometimes a more socratic approach is better.
Since you mentioned the fact that I am an attorney, I will give you an example from my work. I have a breach of contract case pending in the general trial court of my state. My client was employed by the defendant and is alleging that she is owed a severance payment under her employment contract.
After we filed suit, the defendant served a counterclaim, i.e. they sued her back. The counterclaim alleges that my client breached her obligations to the company by deleting company information from her laptop computer before returning it. I asked my client about the allegations, and she insisted (fairly credibly) that all of the stuff she deleted was duplicative of information already in the defendant’s possession, i.e the defendant didn’t actually lose anything as a result of her actions.
I called up the attorney for the defendant and explained all this to him. I urged him to stop wasting everyone’s time with this BS counterclaim. I explained to him that his client apparently hadn’t actually lost any data or software as a result of my client’s actions. After talking to his client about it (and arguing with me a few times), he refused to withdraw the counterclaim for some BS reason which didn’t make a lot of sense.
My next step was to serve what’s called an “interrogatory” on him. An interrogatory is a formal written question. In this case, I asked him to provide a calculation of the damages his client had suffered as a result of my client’s alleged misconduct. (Note that the interrogatory was komponisto-disingenuous, i.e. I already knew the answer.)
He tried to duck the question, and at the next discovery conference, I got the court to order him to answer the question by a certain date. When that day rolled around, the attorney faxed me a letter saying that he wanted to withdraw the counterclaim.
So you see, questions are often a very effective and economical way to shine the spotlight on a critical point.
As I see it, there was only one important question in that story (the interrogatory).
I called up the attorney for the defendant and explained all this to him. I urged him to stop wasting everyone’s time with this BS counterclaim. I explained to him that his client apparently hadn’t actually lost any data or software as a result of my client’s actions.
This conversation was an exchange of statements. “No merit because X” “Yes merit because ”
at the next discovery conference, I got the court to order him to answer the question by a certain date.
May I speculate that your motion to compel and the judge’s order were not filled with questions.
When that day rolled around, the attorney faxed me a letter saying that he wanted to withdraw the counterclaim.
Also a statement.
(Note that the interrogatory was komponisto-disingenuous, i.e. I already knew the answer.)
If you believe that this type of questioning is a virtue in debating because it is a virtue in discovery practice, you are simply mistaken. Also, many questions that are appropriate for interrogatories are not appropriate for cross-examination.
This conversation was an exchange of statements. “No merit because X” “Yes merit because ”
Well there wasn’t really a pause, as best as I recall.
May I speculate that your motion to compel and the judge’s order were not filled with questions.
There was no motion to compel. I simply mentioned it at the discovery conference that I would like an answer to my question. The court officer looked at my adversary and asked, in substance, what exactly the problem was in answering it [Another one of those pesky questions!!] and my adversary agreed to supply an answer.
Also a statement.
Agreed. So what? I’m not arguing that statements or assertions have no place in litigation (or internet discussions).
If you believe that this type of questioning is a virtue in debating because it is a virtue in discovery practice, you are simply mistaken.
Not because it is a virtue in discovery practice per se, but the same underlying principle is at often at work. A question is often an effective (and economical) way of getting to the nub of a dispute and/or focusing attention on a critical issue.
Also, many questions that are appropriate for interrogatories are not appropriate for cross-examination.
Agree, but so what? I’m not trying to say that internet debating is just like litigation.
Since we are talking about questions, I will ironically ask you a question:
Do you dispute that asking questions is sometimes an effective way of getting to the nub of an issue and/or focusing attention on a critical issue?
I don’t know about the “average message board,” but I would say there is still a good deal of hostility here, both in the sense of people being resistant to evidence which contradicts their position as well as plain nastiness.
For example, a few posts back, komponisto accused me of asking questions which were “disingenuous.” When I pointed out that I had made it reasonably clear from the get-go that the questions were for rhetorical purposes, he still insisted that my questions were disingenuous. (Actually, he made his comments more personal by referring to “your disingenuousness ”)
I think the non-hostile thing to do would have been to say “Ok, I agree that your questions were not disingenuous but I still object to them for the following reasons . . . ”
Now that you’ve seen that sentence I added late, do you have a response? Because not responding really calls into question whether you really want to persuade us at all. One might even assert ducking that point was . . . disingenuous.
Sure, I think that sometimes laying things out positively is an effective way to make an argument; and sometimes a more socratic approach is better.
Since you mentioned the fact that I am an attorney, I will give you an example from my work. I have a breach of contract case pending in the general trial court of my state. My client was employed by the defendant and is alleging that she is owed a severance payment under her employment contract.
After we filed suit, the defendant served a counterclaim, i.e. they sued her back. The counterclaim alleges that my client breached her obligations to the company by deleting company information from her laptop computer before returning it. I asked my client about the allegations, and she insisted (fairly credibly) that all of the stuff she deleted was duplicative of information already in the defendant’s possession, i.e the defendant didn’t actually lose anything as a result of her actions.
I called up the attorney for the defendant and explained all this to him. I urged him to stop wasting everyone’s time with this BS counterclaim. I explained to him that his client apparently hadn’t actually lost any data or software as a result of my client’s actions. After talking to his client about it (and arguing with me a few times), he refused to withdraw the counterclaim for some BS reason which didn’t make a lot of sense.
My next step was to serve what’s called an “interrogatory” on him. An interrogatory is a formal written question. In this case, I asked him to provide a calculation of the damages his client had suffered as a result of my client’s alleged misconduct. (Note that the interrogatory was komponisto-disingenuous, i.e. I already knew the answer.)
He tried to duck the question, and at the next discovery conference, I got the court to order him to answer the question by a certain date. When that day rolled around, the attorney faxed me a letter saying that he wanted to withdraw the counterclaim.
So you see, questions are often a very effective and economical way to shine the spotlight on a critical point.
As I see it, there was only one important question in that story (the interrogatory).
This conversation was an exchange of statements. “No merit because X” “Yes merit because ”
May I speculate that your motion to compel and the judge’s order were not filled with questions.
Also a statement.
If you believe that this type of questioning is a virtue in debating because it is a virtue in discovery practice, you are simply mistaken. Also, many questions that are appropriate for interrogatories are not appropriate for cross-examination.
Well there wasn’t really a pause, as best as I recall.
There was no motion to compel. I simply mentioned it at the discovery conference that I would like an answer to my question. The court officer looked at my adversary and asked, in substance, what exactly the problem was in answering it [Another one of those pesky questions!!] and my adversary agreed to supply an answer.
Agreed. So what? I’m not arguing that statements or assertions have no place in litigation (or internet discussions).
Not because it is a virtue in discovery practice per se, but the same underlying principle is at often at work. A question is often an effective (and economical) way of getting to the nub of a dispute and/or focusing attention on a critical issue.
Agree, but so what? I’m not trying to say that internet debating is just like litigation.
Since we are talking about questions, I will ironically ask you a question:
Do you dispute that asking questions is sometimes an effective way of getting to the nub of an issue and/or focusing attention on a critical issue?