I don’t know if I’m disappointed or pleased no one has ever done this to me. Apparently I need to be more threatening to people’s worldviews.
That said: plausible code solutions for this? Anyone remember what if any restrictions there currently are on downvotes? If I recall it was somehow limited by total karma. Would a hard limit on the number of downvotes you’re allowed to give each user per-day make sense?
I really don’t like the idea of “legislating morality”, i.e. building community norms of behavior into the structure of the site (such as, for example, taking away the ability to delete comments because of widespread disapproval of the way this feature has been used by some [Roko]).
Having said that, I’m really surprised that no one has suggested the most obvious “fix”, which would be to disallow voting from user pages. (I don’t necessarily endorse implementing this, but if something is going to be “done”, this seems the least harmful.)
But I think voting from the user page has a ‘legitimate’ purpose- in a way that downvoting every contribution from a user over the last 6 months doesn’t. I know I’ve seen insightful comments and thought “Hey, komponisto’s contribution on this subject seems sharp, lets see what else he’s written” and then proceeded to vote up a bunch of comments from the user page. Voting down comments this way seems somewhat reasonable, too (most obviously in the case of clear trolling).
As for “legislating morality” obviously not every misuse of the site functions requires a code fix and obviously there are some code fixes which have harms that outweigh the benefits. Taking away the ability to delete comments, for example, would leave us with more redundant and obviously wrong comments. But I don’t think there is such thing as a ‘neutral’ site structure that lets community norms float uninhibited. No matter how the karma system is set up it will encourage some types of behavior and discourage others. We can imagine all sorts of alternative karma systems that would encourage very different commenting behavior. Right now the karma system encourages using downvotes as part of a personal vendetta in a way that is not conducive for rewarding contributions or accurately representing the value of comments. If we think such behavior is bad, and we can think of a way to alter the karma system to discourage that behavior while not losing benefits of the current karma system- why not do it?
I think the main problem with how people vote is that they vote for individual comments without reading the context. Well-written non sequiturs are highly upvoted. Reading from recent comments and especially user pages encourages this.
The basin had been a mold, shaping me to look roughly like a human. But I was still far from perfect.
The figures that carried me put me down on a long stone bench, and then left. There were other shapes on both sides of me, other early-stage embryos. I did not yet understand anything.
Time passed, and the lava I was made of grew more solid. My innermost parts were still hot and liquid, but I had a firm outer crust. When I had become hard enough to be worked on, the mason had me brought to him. He studied me for a long time, examining me from every direction and seeking out any imperfections. Whenever he found one, he reached for his hammer. Gradually, he shaped me into a man.
After the mason was done with me, I was taken to the clay maker. The beings carrying me were cautious, for the mason had opened holes from which my innards might spill. I don’t know whether they spilled any, but when I reached the clay maker, I was still viable.
He studied my shape, and then molded a layer of lifeclay around me. It was much softer than lava was, and more sensitive to heat. The clay maker filled the pair of holes the mason had made, fashioning there eyes. Below them he made a mouth, and on their sides a pair of ears. The clay was as good in shaping heat as the walls of the towers were, if not better. It collected warmth and funnelled it deep into my core. My eyes had been made with particular care, and it now that I slowly began to see.
From the clay maker, I was carried to the edge of a great hall. They placed me next to the other infants, on a belt of heatstone close to the wall. The stone burned hot, keeping us sated. I rested there, together with the others. We watched and listened to the things happening in the hall, enjoyed the ever-shifting flows of warmth inside the stone. For a long time, we remained still.
Every useful code fix that I can imagine also blocks some valid voting behavior. But perhaps a more manual approach would help: if the karma of user X drops by more than Y points within time period Z, flag his account and have an admin review the sources of his karma loss, possibly taking disciplinary action towards the downvoters.
Downsides: takes a lot of coding to implement, requires effort on part of the admins, violates downvote anonymity.
Could something like Slashdot’s metamoderation system be implemented for LessWrong? The upvote/downvote system and content management in general seems to be based on reddit’s system, and so I don’t know whether or not the above would be nontrivial.
I don’t know if I’m disappointed or pleased no one has ever done this to me. Apparently I need to be more threatening to people’s worldviews.
That said: plausible code solutions for this? Anyone remember what if any restrictions there currently are on downvotes? If I recall it was somehow limited by total karma. Would a hard limit on the number of downvotes you’re allowed to give each user per-day make sense?
I really don’t like the idea of “legislating morality”, i.e. building community norms of behavior into the structure of the site (such as, for example, taking away the ability to delete comments because of widespread disapproval of the way this feature has been used by some [Roko]).
Having said that, I’m really surprised that no one has suggested the most obvious “fix”, which would be to disallow voting from user pages. (I don’t necessarily endorse implementing this, but if something is going to be “done”, this seems the least harmful.)
But I think voting from the user page has a ‘legitimate’ purpose- in a way that downvoting every contribution from a user over the last 6 months doesn’t. I know I’ve seen insightful comments and thought “Hey, komponisto’s contribution on this subject seems sharp, lets see what else he’s written” and then proceeded to vote up a bunch of comments from the user page. Voting down comments this way seems somewhat reasonable, too (most obviously in the case of clear trolling).
As for “legislating morality” obviously not every misuse of the site functions requires a code fix and obviously there are some code fixes which have harms that outweigh the benefits. Taking away the ability to delete comments, for example, would leave us with more redundant and obviously wrong comments. But I don’t think there is such thing as a ‘neutral’ site structure that lets community norms float uninhibited. No matter how the karma system is set up it will encourage some types of behavior and discourage others. We can imagine all sorts of alternative karma systems that would encourage very different commenting behavior. Right now the karma system encourages using downvotes as part of a personal vendetta in a way that is not conducive for rewarding contributions or accurately representing the value of comments. If we think such behavior is bad, and we can think of a way to alter the karma system to discourage that behavior while not losing benefits of the current karma system- why not do it?
I think the main problem with how people vote is that they vote for individual comments without reading the context. Well-written non sequiturs are highly upvoted. Reading from recent comments and especially user pages encourages this.
The basin had been a mold, shaping me to look roughly like a human. But I was still far from perfect.
The figures that carried me put me down on a long stone bench, and then left. There were other shapes on both sides of me, other early-stage embryos. I did not yet understand anything.
Time passed, and the lava I was made of grew more solid. My innermost parts were still hot and liquid, but I had a firm outer crust. When I had become hard enough to be worked on, the mason had me brought to him. He studied me for a long time, examining me from every direction and seeking out any imperfections. Whenever he found one, he reached for his hammer. Gradually, he shaped me into a man.
After the mason was done with me, I was taken to the clay maker. The beings carrying me were cautious, for the mason had opened holes from which my innards might spill. I don’t know whether they spilled any, but when I reached the clay maker, I was still viable.
He studied my shape, and then molded a layer of lifeclay around me. It was much softer than lava was, and more sensitive to heat. The clay maker filled the pair of holes the mason had made, fashioning there eyes. Below them he made a mouth, and on their sides a pair of ears. The clay was as good in shaping heat as the walls of the towers were, if not better. It collected warmth and funnelled it deep into my core. My eyes had been made with particular care, and it now that I slowly began to see.
From the clay maker, I was carried to the edge of a great hall. They placed me next to the other infants, on a belt of heatstone close to the wall. The stone burned hot, keeping us sated. I rested there, together with the others. We watched and listened to the things happening in the hall, enjoyed the ever-shifting flows of warmth inside the stone. For a long time, we remained still.
I don’t think that’s low-level enough. You probably have to threaten peoples’ group standing or hunting territory or something.
That is my observation too. It’s not about ideas.
In this comment, JoshuaZ says that it’s 4x total karma.
And I don’t think you need to make it per day. Five downvotes allowed per person per 5 minutes solves this problem.
Every useful code fix that I can imagine also blocks some valid voting behavior. But perhaps a more manual approach would help: if the karma of user X drops by more than Y points within time period Z, flag his account and have an admin review the sources of his karma loss, possibly taking disciplinary action towards the downvoters.
Downsides: takes a lot of coding to implement, requires effort on part of the admins, violates downvote anonymity.
Could something like Slashdot’s metamoderation system be implemented for LessWrong? The upvote/downvote system and content management in general seems to be based on reddit’s system, and so I don’t know whether or not the above would be nontrivial.