This is precisely what I would have thought advocates needed to be researching, and I’m amazed there’s so far just been defensiveness, circling of the wagons and ad hominem dismissal....
As I’ve tried to explain, the entire line of criticism is based on a false analogy of cryonics to hypothermic medicine.
OF COURSE, if cryonics were an elective procedure in which a patient were to be cooled to +18 degC and heart stopped for brain surgery, you wouldn’t use paramedics, scientists, or contract cardiothoracic surgeons who may or may not able to show up to do the surgery. OF COURSE, you would use a Certified Clinical Perfusionist to work alongside the surgeon, no exceptions. OF COURSE, any less qualified people are bound to make mistakes, and have made mistakes, mistakes that could be fatal in a mainstream medical setting in which someone was expected to be warmed right back up from +18 degC and woken up at the end of the procedure. OF COURSE, anyone with common sense (no independent medical expert needed) would say that! But that’s not what cryonics is, or could be with any near-term technology.
Cryonics doesn’t stop at +18 degC. The hypothermic phase continues down to 0 degC, and then the cryothermic phase down to −196 degC, doing injuries far beyond reversbility by mainstream medicine. Cryonics is an information preservation excercise at liquid nitrogen temperature, not an attempt to recover people in real-time from minor cooling in clinical settings. The procedures during the hypothermic phase aren’t even the same in many major respects, but I won’t bother getting into that.
Isn’t anyone else struck by the bizarreness of malpractice allegations that need to be vetted by hypothermic medicine experts for procedures that end with decapitated heads and brains likely fractured at liquid nitrogen temperatures?? What medical standards or established specialties exist for that?
Isn’t anyone else struck by the bizarreness of malpractice allegations that need to be vetted by hypothermic medicine experts for procedures that end with decapitated heads and brains likely fractured at liquid nitrogen temperatures??
Mostly the latter. I see someone use the absurdity heuristic, my conditioning kicks in, and I link to the post about it.
As for the “hypothermic vs cryothermic” criticism, well, no, I don’t see the difference. The less the damage that’s done to our decapitated, frozen, fractured heads between clinical death and freezing, the easier it will be to recover the person from the corpse. As far as I can tell, an extra 30 minutes of decay at room temperature really could end up making a significant difference.
As I’ve tried to explain, the entire line of criticism is based on a false analogy of cryonics to hypothermic medicine.
OF COURSE, if cryonics were an elective procedure in which a patient were to be cooled to +18 degC and heart stopped for brain surgery, you wouldn’t use paramedics, scientists, or contract cardiothoracic surgeons who may or may not able to show up to do the surgery. OF COURSE, you would use a Certified Clinical Perfusionist to work alongside the surgeon, no exceptions. OF COURSE, any less qualified people are bound to make mistakes, and have made mistakes, mistakes that could be fatal in a mainstream medical setting in which someone was expected to be warmed right back up from +18 degC and woken up at the end of the procedure. OF COURSE, anyone with common sense (no independent medical expert needed) would say that! But that’s not what cryonics is, or could be with any near-term technology.
Cryonics doesn’t stop at +18 degC. The hypothermic phase continues down to 0 degC, and then the cryothermic phase down to −196 degC, doing injuries far beyond reversbility by mainstream medicine. Cryonics is an information preservation excercise at liquid nitrogen temperature, not an attempt to recover people in real-time from minor cooling in clinical settings. The procedures during the hypothermic phase aren’t even the same in many major respects, but I won’t bother getting into that.
Isn’t anyone else struck by the bizarreness of malpractice allegations that need to be vetted by hypothermic medicine experts for procedures that end with decapitated heads and brains likely fractured at liquid nitrogen temperatures?? What medical standards or established specialties exist for that?
No, why do you ask?
Be honest. Was your one-liner typed with the full understanding of his points on hypothermic vs. cryothermic phases? Or were you just participating in the Less Wrong zombie ritual of linking to other posts? Whatever the case, bring me the down votes on a silver platter :)
Mostly the latter. I see someone use the absurdity heuristic, my conditioning kicks in, and I link to the post about it.
As for the “hypothermic vs cryothermic” criticism, well, no, I don’t see the difference. The less the damage that’s done to our decapitated, frozen, fractured heads between clinical death and freezing, the easier it will be to recover the person from the corpse. As far as I can tell, an extra 30 minutes of decay at room temperature really could end up making a significant difference.
Emergent! (waves garlic and cross)