Yes. This is precisely what I would have thought advocates needed to be researching, and I’m amazed there’s so far just been defensiveness, circling of the wagons and ad hominem dismissal of the claims (“it’s just motivated cognition”, “she has no plans to sign up”). Which are natural human reactions, but that doesn’t make them good ideas.
Against the technology, no (I’d say obviously not). Against the organisational robustness of present-day cryonics? I’d say it could well be. I suspect Charles Platt would agree.
By the way, many of your posts are both enlightening and smile-inducing… and yet, I think I mocked you in the past (I think it was at Pharyngula). Since I suddenly feel guilty about this, I ask that you give me a downvote for atonement.
Again, why does it have to be evidence against cryonics instead of, say, Alcor or SA or CI? She’s not discussing the theoretical desirability or practicality of cryonics.
The theoretical desirability and practicality of cryonics is what matters at this point. It’s what the real controversy is about. If the given organizations are incompetent, they can be replaced with better ones. Or the people in them can be replaced. But, supposing that is necessary, we would need new people to replace them with. People who actually care about cryonics. Melody is not contributing to that cause, in my estimation. Rather she seems to be contributing to, and playing upon, the existing cocktail of mockery, misunderstanding, and marginalization that has plagued cryonics for years.
The theoretical desirability and practicality of cryonics is what matters at this point. It’s what the real controversy is about.
Upvoted. But I’ll still talk about organizational matters below :)
The thing I like about Mike Darwin is that he offers technical criticisms of cryonics organizations without resorting to threats of strict regulation. Of course, I understand there are people who do not think highly of Darwin, and condescendingly claim we are being duped by this “dialysis technician” (who then conveniently leave out that he received additional training from Jerry Leaf). Perhaps those people should inform David Crippen MD that he has been duped by Mike. David is with the Department of Critical Care Medicine at the University of Pittsburgh Medical Center, and Mike must have lied about his credentials when submitting to his book “End-of-Life Communication in the ICU: A Global Perspective”
With that in mind, since I deeply care about useful external criticism (as opposed to mainstream medicine’s silent apathy… because they are still stuck at the starting line by thinking that immortality is some separate magical state of being...), I want Melody to continue with her more technical critiques. However, I do want her to drop her threats of strict regulation, unless she can find many people who have gone through all of the paperwork of signing up and suddenly proclaiming, “Oh my god. You mean to tell me that Atul Gawande is not going to be at my bedside?” I understand the need in politics to sometimes play hardball, but this is different.
I encourage Less Wrong users to look at the language being employed here. Dr. Wowk is saying things like “Mayo clinic” from a life-saving perspective. Melody is saying things like “last wishes,” and emphasizing licensed embalmers. I do not feel comfortable with such language being floated around regulation that its (potential) members don’t want. At all. If any Less Wrong users do want such regulation without even having the intent of utilizing cryonics, then.… well.… shoo, go away.
Is this reaction evidence against cryonics?
Against the technology, no (I’d say obviously not). Against the organisational robustness of present-day cryonics? I’d say it could well be. I suspect Charles Platt would agree.
(voted up as good question)
Upvoted. Did you check out the analysis by Freitas as well? Here’s a link with some additional commentary by Dr. Wowk: http://www.imminst.org/forum/topic/45324-alcor-finances/
By the way, many of your posts are both enlightening and smile-inducing… and yet, I think I mocked you in the past (I think it was at Pharyngula). Since I suddenly feel guilty about this, I ask that you give me a downvote for atonement.
Upvoted to leave you beholden to me. BWAAAhahaha. I learnt that trick from Draco in HP:MOR.
I am sorry, but this is all that came to mind for me.
Again, why does it have to be evidence against cryonics instead of, say, Alcor or SA or CI? She’s not discussing the theoretical desirability or practicality of cryonics.
The theoretical desirability and practicality of cryonics is what matters at this point. It’s what the real controversy is about. If the given organizations are incompetent, they can be replaced with better ones. Or the people in them can be replaced. But, supposing that is necessary, we would need new people to replace them with. People who actually care about cryonics. Melody is not contributing to that cause, in my estimation. Rather she seems to be contributing to, and playing upon, the existing cocktail of mockery, misunderstanding, and marginalization that has plagued cryonics for years.
Upvoted. But I’ll still talk about organizational matters below :)
The thing I like about Mike Darwin is that he offers technical criticisms of cryonics organizations without resorting to threats of strict regulation. Of course, I understand there are people who do not think highly of Darwin, and condescendingly claim we are being duped by this “dialysis technician” (who then conveniently leave out that he received additional training from Jerry Leaf). Perhaps those people should inform David Crippen MD that he has been duped by Mike. David is with the Department of Critical Care Medicine at the University of Pittsburgh Medical Center, and Mike must have lied about his credentials when submitting to his book “End-of-Life Communication in the ICU: A Global Perspective”
Mike also probably lied to get into this debate too: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1414041/
;)
With that in mind, since I deeply care about useful external criticism (as opposed to mainstream medicine’s silent apathy… because they are still stuck at the starting line by thinking that immortality is some separate magical state of being...), I want Melody to continue with her more technical critiques. However, I do want her to drop her threats of strict regulation, unless she can find many people who have gone through all of the paperwork of signing up and suddenly proclaiming, “Oh my god. You mean to tell me that Atul Gawande is not going to be at my bedside?” I understand the need in politics to sometimes play hardball, but this is different.
I encourage Less Wrong users to look at the language being employed here. Dr. Wowk is saying things like “Mayo clinic” from a life-saving perspective. Melody is saying things like “last wishes,” and emphasizing licensed embalmers. I do not feel comfortable with such language being floated around regulation that its (potential) members don’t want. At all. If any Less Wrong users do want such regulation without even having the intent of utilizing cryonics, then.… well.… shoo, go away.