I think this is pretty disanalogous. We’re basically talking about killing people who are unconscious in the cryonics case, versus harvesting non-to-semi-differentiated cells in the other.
Let me clarify that although ″life” is a good, quick word, it doesn’t really capture what we value morally, which is mind or consciousness. That’s why we don’t cry when our appendix is taken out, and why we remove people from ventilators when they’re braindead, even though they are “still alive” in the sense of breathing and having a pulse. A frozen brain is a conscious entity that’s temporarily unconscious. The stem cells never were in the first place.
You have to choose if you value actual fellow humans, or just fetishize that blip on a monitor.
what we value morally, which is mind or conciousness.
But I’m going to pick at you one more time and then shut up. Both an embryo and a cryonically suspended person are presently unconcious. If what you value is past conciousness, then there’s no problem, you’re consistent. If you value potential (or long-future) conciousness, there might be a problem. I’m guessing that you value short-future conciousness—a suspended person (or a sleeping person) can in principle be concious in five minutes, while an embryo cannot.
The next stage of the argument asks about infants and animals and so on, but I said I’d shut up.
I’m guessing that you value short-future conciousness—a suspended person (or a sleeping person) can in principle be concious in five minutes, while an embryo cannot.
I think there is a more salient difference, which is that it’s not the embryo that will be conscious in ~20 weeks, whereas it is the brain.
The next stage of the argument asks about infants and animals and so on, but I said I’d shut up.
By all means continue, I always enjoy parsing these things. My friends are so sick of hearing about trolley cases they’d throw themselves on the tracks.
it’s not the embryo that will be conscious in ~20 weeks, whereas it is the brain.
I don’t understand this. What specifically is the important difference between embryo (now) and non-embryo (in 20 weeks)? Conciousness? Memories? Physical structure? How is it that they are different things, while brain (now) and brain (future) are the same thing?
What specifically is the important difference between embryo (now) and non-embryo (in 20 weeks)? Conciousness? Memories? Physical structure?
Consciousness. Basically, I want to know if there is a reflective “experiencer” there to care about. If not, I don’t give the thing moral standing.
Your cryonically frozen brain presents an odd situation, because the experiencer is sort of “paused.” But I think it’s still clear that in killing that brain you’re ending somebody’s (conscious) life prematurely.
I like this discussion for its own sake, but I am curious: do you disagree with something I’ve said? Or are we just monkeying with scenarios for the sheer hell of it? (Not that that is in any way a bad thing—they are lots of fun.)
If I understand you correctly, you are arguing that the suspended brain is concious (just “paused”, as you say). So there is some property of a system that we can call “concious” even if it’s asleep, suspended, etc., and that embryos (before 20 weeks or so) lack this property.
If this a fair statement, I don’t have anything more to say. The infants, animals etc. stuff is being covered in the “infanticide” sub-thread on this page.
Mostly we’re monkeying with scenarios for the fun of it. I have somewhat less certainty than you about embryonic stem cell research—I estimate some chance that it is morally problematic.
To maintain consistency in my views on the definition of humanity, I’ve recently begun arguing that children should not be considered human until around the age of 5. It tends to elicit a laugh and some interesting discussions thereafter, as I present it semi-seriously.
For the cryonics vs. embryo comparison, it would likely be down to the desires of the people involved and the future costs. A suspended consciousness has the potential for many more people who care about it directly as opposed to a hypothetical consciousness which has yet to influence anyone outside its parents, and is typically cared about in the abstract. The cost of reviving a cryonically frozen consciousness is currently unpayable, so it can’t really be compared with the cost of generating a whole human from scratch (natural birth).
For the ability to do a real world comparison, I would use the cost of birthing consciousness against the cost of bringing someone back from general anesthesia, which is very close to, and perhaps exactly, suspended consciousness. In that comparison, reviving the anesthetized patient has significantly lower costs and has many more people directly preferring it to occur.
This model also applies different values to different levels of consciousness and amount of experience contained within the mind due to the costs involved in obtaining and verifying it.
To maintain consistency in my views on the definition of humanity, I’ve recently
begun arguing that children should not be considered human until around the
age of 5.
I’m intrigued. What specific inconsistency drives you to this? I’m imagining you put a high value on something in order to publicly (even if jokingly) say such a thing, and I’m wondering what that something is.
What sets humanity apart from animals is our conscious mind and ability to reason. Children do not yet possess that full capability, though they typically have the potential for it with the appropriate time and effort. I adjust my values accordingly.
Thought experiment to judge the value/cost model:
Imagine if the revival of a cryonically preserved consciousness required, once thawed, sustaining the mind in an expensive machine which played back its memories at a cost of X per minute of life experience. Without this procedure, the mind would be that of a newborn, and with it, they are fully restored.
Further assume that you are alive at the time of this revival, rather than the person who is preserved.
How much X would you pay, if you were able, to revive a loved one? A stranger? At what point does the cost of X exceed the cost of birthing a whole new person to take their place, should you so desire?
Under this model, cryonics is a choice of very low maintenance costs to preserve the mind until such time as X swings in favor of restoring the preserved person, hopefully with the collective action of those whose preferences are inclined toward paying a higher X (cryonics advocacy groups like Alcor).
I think this is pretty disanalogous. We’re basically talking about killing people who are unconscious in the cryonics case, versus harvesting non-to-semi-differentiated cells in the other.
Let me clarify that although ″life” is a good, quick word, it doesn’t really capture what we value morally, which is mind or consciousness. That’s why we don’t cry when our appendix is taken out, and why we remove people from ventilators when they’re braindead, even though they are “still alive” in the sense of breathing and having a pulse. A frozen brain is a conscious entity that’s temporarily unconscious. The stem cells never were in the first place.
You have to choose if you value actual fellow humans, or just fetishize that blip on a monitor.
You basically answered my question when you said
But I’m going to pick at you one more time and then shut up. Both an embryo and a cryonically suspended person are presently unconcious. If what you value is past conciousness, then there’s no problem, you’re consistent. If you value potential (or long-future) conciousness, there might be a problem. I’m guessing that you value short-future conciousness—a suspended person (or a sleeping person) can in principle be concious in five minutes, while an embryo cannot.
The next stage of the argument asks about infants and animals and so on, but I said I’d shut up.
I think there is a more salient difference, which is that it’s not the embryo that will be conscious in ~20 weeks, whereas it is the brain.
By all means continue, I always enjoy parsing these things. My friends are so sick of hearing about trolley cases they’d throw themselves on the tracks.
I don’t understand this. What specifically is the important difference between embryo (now) and non-embryo (in 20 weeks)? Conciousness? Memories? Physical structure? How is it that they are different things, while brain (now) and brain (future) are the same thing?
Consciousness. Basically, I want to know if there is a reflective “experiencer” there to care about. If not, I don’t give the thing moral standing.
Your cryonically frozen brain presents an odd situation, because the experiencer is sort of “paused.” But I think it’s still clear that in killing that brain you’re ending somebody’s (conscious) life prematurely.
I like this discussion for its own sake, but I am curious: do you disagree with something I’ve said? Or are we just monkeying with scenarios for the sheer hell of it? (Not that that is in any way a bad thing—they are lots of fun.)
If I understand you correctly, you are arguing that the suspended brain is concious (just “paused”, as you say). So there is some property of a system that we can call “concious” even if it’s asleep, suspended, etc., and that embryos (before 20 weeks or so) lack this property.
If this a fair statement, I don’t have anything more to say. The infants, animals etc. stuff is being covered in the “infanticide” sub-thread on this page.
Mostly we’re monkeying with scenarios for the fun of it. I have somewhat less certainty than you about embryonic stem cell research—I estimate some chance that it is morally problematic.
To maintain consistency in my views on the definition of humanity, I’ve recently begun arguing that children should not be considered human until around the age of 5. It tends to elicit a laugh and some interesting discussions thereafter, as I present it semi-seriously.
For the cryonics vs. embryo comparison, it would likely be down to the desires of the people involved and the future costs. A suspended consciousness has the potential for many more people who care about it directly as opposed to a hypothetical consciousness which has yet to influence anyone outside its parents, and is typically cared about in the abstract. The cost of reviving a cryonically frozen consciousness is currently unpayable, so it can’t really be compared with the cost of generating a whole human from scratch (natural birth).
For the ability to do a real world comparison, I would use the cost of birthing consciousness against the cost of bringing someone back from general anesthesia, which is very close to, and perhaps exactly, suspended consciousness. In that comparison, reviving the anesthetized patient has significantly lower costs and has many more people directly preferring it to occur.
This model also applies different values to different levels of consciousness and amount of experience contained within the mind due to the costs involved in obtaining and verifying it.
I’m intrigued. What specific inconsistency drives you to this? I’m imagining you put a high value on something in order to publicly (even if jokingly) say such a thing, and I’m wondering what that something is.
What sets humanity apart from animals is our conscious mind and ability to reason. Children do not yet possess that full capability, though they typically have the potential for it with the appropriate time and effort. I adjust my values accordingly.
One real world test: Ashley X
Thought experiment to judge the value/cost model:
Imagine if the revival of a cryonically preserved consciousness required, once thawed, sustaining the mind in an expensive machine which played back its memories at a cost of X per minute of life experience. Without this procedure, the mind would be that of a newborn, and with it, they are fully restored.
Further assume that you are alive at the time of this revival, rather than the person who is preserved.
How much X would you pay, if you were able, to revive a loved one? A stranger? At what point does the cost of X exceed the cost of birthing a whole new person to take their place, should you so desire?
Under this model, cryonics is a choice of very low maintenance costs to preserve the mind until such time as X swings in favor of restoring the preserved person, hopefully with the collective action of those whose preferences are inclined toward paying a higher X (cryonics advocacy groups like Alcor).